What To Play Over My Bossa Progression?

[DavesGuitarPlanet]

yes, can get some ideas from Stan and Charlie.

Ha! Just looked at chart for One Note Samba and it is quite similar! (Unconscious plagiarism?) I do a minor thing, then up a minor third, then back. ONS does same, but goes from Dm7, up to Fm7 then back. Then there's a bridge with similar feeling, but different relationship to other chords.
So yeah, is cool to hear what these guys do over that.
Charlie hangs out on a minor third (quite bluesy), for a bit. The "one note" is also the minor third, which is the common tone of the backing chords. (But of course the entire gimmick of that tune is the 'monotony' of the melody. I'm not about to copy THAT! ;-) )

[ragman1]

I totally agree. My goal is to play lines that sound like something you might hum or sing. To me, all the best players (or my favorite ones at least), play this way. Hopefully, if you listen to the melody/head I came up with, it is 'tuneful,' and something the listener can access.
But what I'm still finding hard is to come up with lines in a solo section that sound equally natural.
I'd love to hear some others give it a whack. :-)

Back to square one, then :-)

[DavesGuitarPlanet]

The Bm at the start. Is that in its own key or in G major (the iii chord)? If it's in G then you can play notes from G maj over it. That implies G major pentatonic. That would be easy enough. Or just use Bm pentatonic.

Or is that Bm in its own key, so to speak? If so, you could play the G# over it for a m6 sound. That implies a C# minor or E major pentatonic. Try it, it'll give you the m6 sound.

Then comes the Bb7b5. I can tell you that's not a sound in Bm, either harmonic or melodic. You can play a B melodic minor over it because it's an altered chord. Pentatonic-wise that would be a Db/C# minor/E major to give an alt sound.

So you have a connection there although the Bm and the Bb7b5 aren't related. You could use the same pentatonic over both. But you may not like the sound; it may sound samey over 4 bars.

Or you could treat that Bb7b5 as a tritone sub for E7 - which leads to the Am. In that case you could use a Bm pentatonic. So you could use the Bm over both the Bm and the Bb7b5.

So you could use C#m for the Bm and the Bm for the Bb7b5. Or even C#m for both.

Then to Am. Again, do you want that to be an Am sound or an Am6 sound? The G major scale would do it. Or A melodic minor if you felt adventurous. Or simply an A minor pentatonic. But use B minor pent if you want the m6 sound.

So - listen to this - you could use the Bm pentatonic over the whole of that bit, the Bm, Bb7b5 and the Am. It's quick and simple, albeit repetitive.

From Am to Ab7b5 to G is obviously all in G. You could use the G scale, which would be lame, or Eb melodic minor over the Ab7b5. Or Bm pentatonic for the alt sound.

GM13 is just G, of course, although it's more a 6 sound than a M7 sound.

The Gm7 - C7b9 - FM7 section shouldn't be a problem to you. Play Gm, go up a m3rd to Bbm, then down to Am. That's the 'pro' trick!

Then the E7#9 is a blues sound. Just play Em pentatonic and you'll be fine. Nothing complicated there. Or just hit the chord. Always effective :-)

There is a connection between E7 and Bm (Bm is the ii of E7) but it's been suggested a couple of times that you change the E7 to a chord that would lead back to Bm. The obvious one is F#7, possibly F#7+ or F#7#9. But it might not sound quite right after the FM7.

You could try the tritone of F#7 which would be C7b5. That fits with both the FM7 before and, chromatically, the Bm after.

See what you think. I think it sounds all right with the E7#9 as it is, personally.

Ragman,

Thanks a lot for all your thoughts.

Almost ashamed to say it, but when you said, 'if the tune is in G, then just play G maj, or G maj pent over it,' and I tried that, and it seemed like an 'a-ha' moment. Very freeing, and very easy. Actually, as long as you're sensitive to avoiding the notes of the G maj scale over the beginning vamp (Bm11, Bb7b5, Am11), I think it works quite well. And it doesn't try to trick the listener with anything odd sounding, by trying to follow each chord robotically.

AND, I figured out why my melody sounds so natural: it's basically in Gmaj!
But, if I do want to address the Bb7b5, I can be mindful of the whole tone scale or the altered scale (which are similar, but of course the altered has 2 half steps).

No, I don't think I want to address Bm as its own microclimate.

And thanks for the 'pro trick of Gm > Bbm >Am. Not sure I'd ever done that before, but seems to work well. Actually, I was playing around with not just m7 arps there, but also adding the 9.

I tried the suggested substitutions for E7#9 (which even if theoretically odd, I like). However, an F#7b5 did sort of work. I also tried Em7b5, which sort of works. But I think I'll keep the E7#9.

Well again, this is all an experiment. I MAY try another pass at recording a solo. Or not. Haven't decided. :-)
Be well,
Dave P.

[alltunes]

Hi Davesguitarplanet,

you’ve got quite some attention from players, here.

Though I am by no means a guitar genius, I get to play a lot and sit in with different jazz and latin bands. I can play the right notes to your tune, but struggle to find a good melody.

the thing is: though it doesn’t sound unpleasant to the ear at first hearing it, the harmonic rhythm is just not there. In the first part starting on Bm, I hear Bm7b5, Bb7b5 going to Am, but then you immediately go back to what you describe as being Bm11. This is not a great progression, and it doesn’t really inspire. In the second part you repeat the same progression starting on Dm.

I am sorry to say it doesn’t sound good. Your chord playing and timing is good and the backing sounds wonderful, but harmonically the song is no material for a great tune, melody or solo.

I tried a few times and came to the conclusion that it has the same problem as badly notated or transcribed changes in a bad real book: they lack harmonic or melodic possibilities. They need more than some attention to make them “work”.

Try any of the great bossas, you will more easily find a great way to solo on them. Or, but I think this will not be easy: find a great melody to your harmony. This way your progression might just make sense.

sorry for the harsh words, but I think this tune is a waste of anyone’s time, especially considering there are all these beautiful bossas around, from Comecar de novo to Insensatez, One note Samba to the wonderful Girl from Ipanema.

best regards though and thanks for your beautiful sounds and marvellous guitar collection.

And this my friends is what is wrong with jazz.....

[alltunes]

I found that reply to be elitist and condescending. If jazz is to grow it must be for the people. The OP was simply looking for a little guidance on how to solo over his tune. This is the category called Improvisation on a jazz guitar forum right?

A simple encouraging answer by a “pro” could simply be “hey cool tune....one of the reasons you might be having trouble is because the chords don’t lend themselves to lines that flow through the changes....try this...“

This isn’t a master class by Segovia where one might be expected to be ridiculed.
Maybe the jazz world should take a clue from the bluegrass world and attempt to be more of a nurturing community.

I should add that many of the replies above were helpful in a constructive way. As an outsider and someone who has participated in many online forums there seems to be more of an elitist tone here.

[christianm77]

In general I would recommend having a go at writing the melody first as an exercise... Melody first is way out of the comfort zone of most guitar players, so it's good to develop your compositional skills.

[christianm77]

Here's the song that Dave's progression reminded me of a little (the first one):

[DavesGuitarPlanet]

I wrote out the melody I'd come up with (in one of my videos, above). It also has the backing chords with diagrams (made in Guitar Pro app). For anyone who's interested.

Here's a link to PDF version: https://davesguitarplanet.com/_misc/bossa-kielbasa.pdf
(It's in a subfolder on my lesson site, Dave's Guitar Planet.)

Below are the three pages as PNG files.
(I also put the rhythm backing and melody files on SoundCloud. I tried pasting in the 'embed' code, but it didn't work.)

Bossa Kielbasa - Rhythm, Melody by Dave's Guitar Planet | Free Listening on SoundCloud

And you can download the backing rhythm here (to make it easy to play along to and maybe record a solo over?):
https://davesguitarplanet.com/_misc/...melody.m4a.zip

[DavesGuitarPlanet]

I am sorry to say it doesn’t sound good. Your chord playing and timing is good and the backing sounds wonderful, but harmonically the song is no material for a great tune, melody or solo.

Djang,

You might be right. The reason I sought out this forum was...yeah, I thought the progression sounded cool, but I also was having trouble finding something to play over it that sounded natural/good. I was open to the possibility that there was no clear 'solution.' That still may be the case...but though I have yet to get comfortable playing over it (and may just move on, considering it an interesting but ultimately dead-end exercise), I have found some things that help. Not sure if I'll make another little video to show this progress, but may. But briefly, I've found that sticking largely to G maj pent works fairly well (over the main vamp), and then occasionally throwing in a few of the notes distinctive to the 7b5 chords. This strategy does sort of keep it in the 'accessible/smooth jazz' vein (i.e., not very ambitious or interesting to jazz aficionados), but I think it can at least work.

BTW, did you hear the melody I wrote for it, at the beginning of this video? Personally, I think it sounds OK.

I think this tune is a waste of anyone’s time, especially considering there are all these beautiful bossas around

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. Of course there are lots of great bossa's, especially by Jobim. My intention for posting here was to see if there were some ideas or insight I hadn't thought of; not to lay claim to writing the next great bossa. ;-)

[DavesGuitarPlanet]

In general I would recommend having a go at writing the melody first as an exercise... Melody first is way out of the comfort zone of most guitar players, so it's good to develop your compositional skills.

Did you see the vid I posted, above, with melody? Here it is again, below. And, today I tabbed/scored it out (see Post #34).

[Djang]

Sorry for the lack of diplomacy. That was the wrong way of approaching Davesguitarplanet and I am sorry for that. I shouldn’t have written what I did.

as a matter of fact, I am going to take this reply down.

I am sorry for offending.

you are trying to make sense of the music that you love. I shouldn’t diminish your effort.

on a more helpful note. Your first chord, now I see your melody and how I felt it myself is Bm7b5(add11). And, as some said: it is largely 3-6-2-5-1 in Gmaj. So, as you correctly remarked Gmaj or Gmaj pentatonic will do nicely.
it uses tritone substitution which results in 3-b3(#9)-2-b3

By way of advice, the harmony wants to move to Gmaj (or Bm11, which is largely the same). After you descend, you go up to the Bb7b5, before going to Bm. I believe Ab7b5 would resolve more nicely.

This way the progression would sound more smoothly and it will help you improvise. The 3 chord is made more ambivalent this way: it is Gmaj, but also Bm7b5. This opens up more possibilities.

you wrote it out nicely. If you use 4 bars per line, you will make it easier to see the harmony and separate the different parts.

I want to apologize for my post one more time. And thx to the other members who helped you understand and make sense of the progression... they were helpful and I wasn’t.

[Vladan]

To me, it sounds like Pink Floyd.

[ragman1]

Djang -

Don't worry about it :-)

I've done this a hundred times so far and it goes by pretty fast at the speed Dave plays it. The only thing I've found that makes the A and B parts sound 'natural', which is what he wants, is pentatonics - which also suit the melody, of course. I use a combination of Em and Bm (I prefer them to majors) and Gm and Dm. The straightforward ii-V-I in F is simple, so that's no problem.

When I first did it, I was playing each chord for too long (I'm surprised no one noticed - or maybe I'm not) and there was time to play with altered sounds. But it wasn't the right speed. I've since taken them down.

So that's that. The question now is: can Dave play it himself?

This progression has been compared to One Note Samba. I don't know what the original chords were but there are a number of transcriptions on YouTube of the tune and the changes are actually very harmonic. Nothing particularly peculiar or anything. So the resemblance is actually fairly superficial.

(I also have a theory that the Bb7b5/Db7b5 chords in Dave's tune have one function going down and another coming back up, but that's theoretical).

Oh, and Kielbasa is a Polish sausage dish... interesting in Thailand :-)

[ragman1]

And because, as you know, I'm not happy being confined to set sounds... hope you don't mind :-)

[DavesGuitarPlanet]

Basically bored with it at this point, I went over it once then recorded this with my MIM Tele today. I wasn't really thinking of much theory when I did it. I think I was basically playing Aeolian or blues scale over the minor vamps (Bm, then Dm), throwing in the maj6 interval (which is characteristic of Dorian) on the 7b5 sometimes. Then I tried to play Fmaj stuff over the ii-V-I in F (which I'm poor at). But basically, I was just 'singing' (try to play what I might scat) over it, trying to keep it simple/accessible/tuneful. Maybe not for others, but for me I think the tune works. If, for example, I were still playing in bands and in a venue where a bossa was appropriate, I think the tune would be nice. Not profound or anything, but pleasant. I still think a better jazzer than myself could probably do better over it. It is was it is. Thanks for everyone's input, but probably time to move on. :-)

[DavesGuitarPlanet]

BTW, I guess the original thing that I started with on the progression, which I thought sounded cool, was the voice leading between the Bm11 > Bb7b5 > Am11 > Bb7b5. Apparently some of you think this is 'wrong,' or breaks rules. But I did try, for example, changing the 7b5 chords to full diminished (more conventional 'passing chords'), and didn't care for it. For me, I still like my original idea. Maybe it's just my ears, but it works for me. But yeah, rather hard to solo over. :-)

[ragman1]

You can hear the first solo wasn't right over the Bb7b5's. After that you changed it and it was fine. Quite good, actually :-)

(You're not making anything of the C7b9. No point in having a7b9 sound unless you bring it out, may as well just be C7)

So, have this. I know Dave wants me to eff off now but this is worth it. Just the once :-)

[rpjazzguitar]

BTW, I guess the original thing that I started with on the progression, which I thought sounded cool, was the voice leading between the Bm11 > Bb7b5 > Am11 > Bb7b5. Apparently some of you think this is 'wrong,' or breaks rules. But I did try, for example, changing the 7b5 chords to full diminished (more conventional 'passing chords'), and didn't care for it. For me, I still like my original idea. Maybe it's just my ears, but it works for me. But yeah, rather hard to solo over. :-)

I think the chord progression is good. If you can get a good melody, there's a good song in there.

I agree that it breaks "rules", meaning it goes in an unexpected direction. But, if the song hangs together that's a feature, not a bug.