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Originally Posted by christianm77
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08-25-2018 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Freel
"Hooked on CLassics" shtick.
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Originally Posted by R Neil
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Originally Posted by Vladan
D.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
So there’s the drummer’s swing, and then how the soloist pushes and pulls against either the up or down beat. In the example hubbard pulls against the down beat
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Originally Posted by Freel
That level of "natural" swing is a rare and precious thing.
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Originally Posted by joe2758
*EDIT: Starts right at 6:55 actually and continues through 6:56.Last edited by Tal_175; 08-25-2018 at 10:09 AM.
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Glad you enjoyed it Mark, I think they caught the dream I described earlier.
Bernard Zacharius' trombone playing on this recording KILLS me.
I think he comes from this tradition, which is weirdly reminiscent of New Orleans, ESPECIALLY the low brass. If it's not your thing you should at least hold out long enough to treat yourself to the magic that happens at 1.20
D.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Listen to Jimmy Raney and tell me he’s going Dum-de-dum-de-dum lol
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Just to clarify a bit more. Starting from 6:54 or so where it's slowed down, if you just look at the staff notation at the top of the video and follow the the moving bar, it's pretty easy to see that all up beats are aligned with the accents of Art Blakey.
My point is, if the drummer I'm playing with is accenting up beats like in the video, my up beats would be aligned with the drummer. Not because I'm the master swing but it'd be harder to do otherwise. Does that not make sense?
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
If you can tap or sing the upbeats when you hear a record, give the upbeats equal weight in your playing and play along with the record in the pocket the you will be able to swing.
And the pocket does seem to mean, focus on the position of the upbeat in your line with reference to the ensemble. That bit of information I’ve found useful.
The quantification of that I’ll leave to the academics, I don’t really care.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Sometimes this is described as 'an eagles eye view'. Best way to get this is to drum and sing along with good vocalists. Next step is to make your metronome do it.
Other things that help are asymmetrical counting patterns such as Son and Rhumba clave's in both inversions, the Cascara and the various other Afro Cuban bell patterns.
I don't know how Jimmy got it, probably by playing tunes well.
D.
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Oh I should have mentioned, if you recite the Cascada aloud whilst playing technical exercises like scales you should very naturally develop the ability to accent ANY part of the bar with control and relaxation, which is another thing that helps music live.
D.
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Or let me put it another way - is your interest in this issue primarily practical or intellectual?
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Sorry, I should have helped with the nuts and bolts.
A good way to memorise the Cascara is this phrase.
I don't like Carrots-I like Potatoes, reverse the order of the phrases to invert the rhythm.
Learn to recite that whilst drumming hand to hand, then maybe some picking exercise, then scale fragments, then ....get creative.
D.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I think you misunderstood me. I am not disagreeing with you on your emphasis of upbeats.
I'm just pointing out that in the video Hubbard's alignment with up beats seem to be dictated by the accents of Art Blakey. I didn't post this video which discusses the scientific breakdown of swing, I just watched it because I was reading the thread.
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is it possible blakey was accenting the up beat because ?of how hubbard was swinging at that time? yeah it would sound pants, as we like to say, if the drummer was accenting up beats and the soloist was trying to swing by locking in with down beats and playing straight. or maybe it would be awesome who knows
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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yeah Tal I been doing that since i made this post, and i found it funny at first how i kept landing (i was tapping the up beats) on the drummer’s snare comping
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or i should say since the music is fast i was tapping random “ands” of the various beats
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
We could talk about pushes and accents (the cascara/clave thing is hip BTW - try playing parker heads with a clave, Moose the Mooche is a 3/2 clave), triplets and all sorts of things being part of swing and the rhythmic vocabulary, but as I understand it Joe's focus was just on this basic element.
I spend quite a lot of time actually straightening out the 8ths of students from the horrible jerky dotted 8th, 16th swing or the corny doo-be-doo-be-doos (what Destiny used to call the 'twee bounce') - even those who are otherwise excellent players. Often people who listen mostly to things like Hip-hop, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Snarky Puppy, Glasper etc actually are the worse culprits, even though you would think the opposite lol. They actually overcompensate.
OTOH if they can't feel the swing bounce 'ands' of the bar, they won't swing at all... So you have to (I think) tackle the problem from both ends. (Of course I have no idea if you are making any of these mistakes or not.)
I think the written out ideas of 'swing' such as found here Swing (jazz performance style) - Wikipedia are incredibly unhelpful.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Terminology in music seems to be associative rather than definitive.
Even the term upbeat which seems to have originated by conductors' hand gesture to indicate the last beat of a measure (and the downbeat is the gesture of for the first beat), but at least in jazz it's used differently.
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Originally Posted by joe2758
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Bill Moll John Pizzarelli Signature
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