Learning improvisational language through practice, phrase, and etudes

[nick1994]

I see the pick up and the first bar phrase emphasizing the major tonality of the C (as opposed to the dominant 7). We have the major 7 in the pick up followed by the A minor triad which is implying a C6 sound to me and holding that major blues sound - no b7 in sight. Pretty cool.

the A- triad could be setting up for the d-7, landing on the A in the 1st bar leads into the D nicely.

[TH]

I see the pick up and the first bar phrase emphasizing the major tonality of the C (as opposed to the dominant 7). We have the major 7 in the pick up followed by the A minor triad which is implying a C6 sound to me and holding that major blues sound - no b7 in sight. Pretty cool.

Yes. With the tonality set so strongly, you can even leave space on the first beat of the change. How cool is that?
David

[TH]

I like it! Just so I understand the format we want to follow:

TruthHertz, you will post the pages as pics of the score and we will work on them? And there is a Youtube track for each etude?

I don't mind supporting the authors by buying the book, but it's good to know that we are starting with or without a book in hand.

We'll post ourselves as we feel we have mastered sections (similar to the Aebersold and Conti study groups)?

Hi rlrhett! I was thinking I'd post a phrase at a time and give an introduction to the devices within: chromatic approach... upper neighbor, etc. that way newbies could "meet the family" and I'd suggest ways to practice each device/vary it. This way you could learn the etude as a soloist would conceive it.
We could also comment on the ways we see the phrase (I see a motif here, etc) and in this micro process we develop a usable familiarity with the tools of the trade.
If one person comes to include a melodic sequence in their playing when they would've usually played a tired scale passage, then THAT's exciting!
This should also help strategise logical fingerings that swing, by hearing and practicing in phrases
Thats my hope
David

[matt.guitarteacher]

So that lick over the G7 is pretty funky. Huh? Interested in how one analyzes such things. I don't really don't know.

Is it an arpeggiated embellishment of a basic descending chromatic to D? E-Eb-D-B-G is easy to grasp. Is it like a variation of that? Chromatic resolution delayed by chord tones? I know there are nerd chord scale analyses possible as well.

[rlrhett]

Just so I know my ears aren't that terrible, the YouTube video is in Eb not C... right? Everything he is playing is actually a minor third above what is scored. Or am I that far off?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Just so I know my ears aren't that terrible, the YouTube video is in Eb not C... right? Everything he is playing is actually a minor third above what is scored. Or am I that far off?

Now you mention it, it seems like David mentioned that the written score isn't in concert key.

[wzpgsr]

So that lick over the G7 is pretty funky. Huh? Interested in how one analyzes such things. I don't really don't know.

Is it an arpeggiated embellishment of a basic descending chromatic to D? E-Eb-D-B-G is easy to grasp. Is it like a variation of that? Chromatic resolution delayed by chord tones? I know there are nerd chord scale analyses possible as well.

I'm hearing that Eb over G7 as a blue minor third relative to and borrowed from the C7. In the following C7 bar, there's Gm9 lick that is reminiscent of "cry me a river" lick. Good example of playing minor on the fifth of a dominant. Even though the final four notes of the bar could theoretically be coming from Gm, to me they have that C major sound again, resolving on the fifth.

[nick1994]

So that lick over the G7 is pretty funky. Huh? Interested in how one analyzes such things. I don't really don't know.

Is it an arpeggiated embellishment of a basic descending chromatic to D? E-Eb-D-B-G is easy to grasp. Is it like a variation of that? Chromatic resolution delayed by chord tones? I know there are nerd chord scale analyses possible as well.

Its a descending G aug triad, it's like a delayed chromatic resolution to the D.

[TH]

Just so I know my ears aren't that terrible, the YouTube video is in Eb not C... right? Everything he is playing is actually a minor third above what is scored. Or am I that far off?

The lead sheet I posted is from the Sax version of the book. I'd used it as a kind of challenge so we could learn these by tonal and harmonic reference and not by actual key (Roman numeral vs key signature) and because I wanted to resist the concert key version and the TAB that came with it. I thought that might shift the emphasis to learning this as a piece, and not as a compendium of devices.
Then I thought about it. If someone wants to learn it as a piece, it's not for me to say that's not worth the time, but I'll be focusing on an organic approach that models actual soloing processes.
Anyway, here's concert with TAB.
David

[Michael Kaye]

If I had to vote I'm fine with the concert c version. I also am interested in the language aspect of this as opposed to a performance view. I plan to use these pieces to understand their construction as a method for gaining melodic sensibility in my own improvisations. My goal is to elevate my playing from "this scale works over these changes" to something more meaningful that reflects my understanding of the harmony involved in any set of changes.

[rlrhett]

Its a descending G aug triad, it's like a delayed chromatic resolution to the D.

I too understood/see it as a Aug triad. I don't, however, know the theory as to why an Aug triad would work there or where else it could be used to similar effect.


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[rlrhett]

Learning to read TAB may be easier than learning standard notation, but it still is learning to read music. It takes effort, effort I always felt I would rather use learning standard notation. So I don't read TAB, and like you find it distracting.

Likewise, I am not interested in learning the whole etude as a set piece. The Frank Vignola Rhythm Changes study group was doing that, and after learning five separate 32 bar etudes i lost patience and had to drop out.

All that said, I still like the score to match the example. I like playing a bar or two, hearing him play a bar or two and reading the score. If the score is transposed by a third, it requires one more step of mental gymnastics. That distracts from what I am trying to do, which is challenging enough.

So thanks for posting the score that matches the key he is actually playing the example in.


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[dingusmingus]

So that lick over the G7 is pretty funky. Huh? Interested in how one analyzes such things. I don't really don't know.

Is it an arpeggiated embellishment of a basic descending chromatic to D? E-Eb-D-B-G is easy to grasp. Is it like a variation of that? Chromatic resolution delayed by chord tones? I know there are nerd chord scale analyses possible as well.

Yes, I'm interested too. If you think of it as E D# B G, you get a G augmented feel (followed by a G minor feel in the next measure over the C7).

I believe I've seen that augmented triad in bebop heads, like Donna Lee.

edit to add: oops, I see Nick1994 said the same thing earlier in the thread. I like the G aug followed by G minor, though.

[Michael Kaye]

I too understood/see it as a Aug triad. I don't, however, know the theory as to why an Aug triad would work there or where else it could be used to similar effect.


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Altering the V chord in a ii-V- I is a pretty standard practice in jazz harmony. The typical alterations on the V chord are #5, b5, #9, b9 in various combinations. In this case we have a #5 line over the V chord.

I guess the interesting thing to me is that the line is compact. One altered note. It's not a complete step out to the altered scale (containing all the altered notes mentioned above) but a simple use of one of those notes that says enough by itself. It's brief and shows restraint. I like that because my tendency is throw every thing I've got at a chord. ????

[TH]

Learning to read TAB may be easier than learning standard notation, but it still is learning to read music. It takes effort, effort I always felt I would rather use learning standard notation. So I don't read TAB, and like you find it distracting.

Likewise, I am not interested in learning the whole etude as a set piece. The Frank Vignola Rhythm Changes study group was doing that, and after learning five separate 32 bar etudes i lost patience and had to drop out.

All that said, I still like the score to match the example. I like playing a bar or two, hearing him play a bar or two and reading the score. If the score is transposed by a third, it requires one more step of mental gymnastics. That distracts from what I am trying to do, which is challenging enough.

So thanks for posting the score that matches the key he is actually playing the example in.


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My pleasure. The ongoing lesson in teaching: Don't try to second guess the value in information. Glad it helps. I definitely see value in anything that takes someone out of where they're stuck, puts them on a creative path.
Measure by measure learning is not my way either. I'm always trying to get to "What were you thinking when that beautiful line appeared out of nowhere?! Can I ever get to that place on my own?"
David

[Michael Kaye]

From that idea I made a couple of my own ... One altered note in the line.

And now my practice session is over...off to the real world..

Hmmm....don't know how to rotate that. Sorry about that

[Michael Kaye]

[Jehu]

I'm seeing/hearing it the same as some others have mentioned:
- starting off with a Cmaj sound, with that last C - A in the first measure which could be seen as going to the 6th of C (a major sound) or anticipating the Dm
- Dm heading to Gaug
- returning to C in the 3rd measure, but this time a bluesy Cdom (C9) sound. I recognise that slip from the b7 to the 6 as a Raney thing, which probably means it's a Parker thing?

[wzpgsr]

What does everyone think of the thought process behind that G augmented triad? Eventually I'd imagine a skilled soloist is thinking of the sound it creates, rather than thinking "i will play a g augmented triad here." Is there something special about the #5 sound in the context of a blues that makes it a better choice than moving to one of the other altered notes? (I'm not suggesting there's a right answer here, just interested in what you think or like.) I played the same lick with different altered notes in place of the #5 but I think there's something special sounding about moving a half step down from the 6 to the #5 that makes it sound especially bluesy.

[Michael Kaye]

What does everyone think of the thought process behind that G augmented triad? Eventually I'd imagine a skilled soloist is thinking of the sound it creates, rather than thinking "i will play a g augmented triad here." Is there something special about the #5 sound in the context of a blues that makes it a better choice than moving to one of the other altered notes? (I'm not suggesting there's a right answer here, just interested in what you think or like.) I played the same lick with different altered notes in place of the #5 but I think there's something special sounding about moving a half step down from the 6 to the #5 that makes it sound especially bluesy.

I agree with you. I think we're talking about context. In my two examples, I think they are fine as stand alone phrases over the changes but they don't sound as "sweet" against the following phrases. I think my phrases need to go somewhere slightly different, I guess. Certainly there is a continuity aspect to linkflavorases. And of course that can be a matter of "taste" as well. I'm playing with some ideas on this still as I'm not just thinking of the individual phrase but also where I'm going. There is quite a bit of evolution in this process.

Just an after thought: I think my two examples using the b5 and the b9 bring my phrase in to a diminished flavor which is why they sound not quite "right" in that context.

[rlrhett]

What does everyone think of the thought process behind that G augmented triad? Eventually I'd imagine a skilled soloist is thinking of the sound it creates, rather than thinking "i will play a g augmented triad here." Is there something special about the #5 sound in the context of a blues that makes it a better choice than moving to one of the other altered notes? (I'm not suggesting there's a right answer here, just interested in what you think or like.) I played the same lick with different altered notes in place of the #5 but I think there's something special sounding about moving a half step down from the 6 to the #5 that makes it sound especially bluesy.

I actually think he WAS thinking Gaug. The preceding bars all seem to be triad based with passing tones. C up, C down, D (scalar) up, Gaug down. That seems very much his thinking in these few bars.

[TH]

I thought it'd be kind of interesting to talk about process when we're soloing and the role of phrases and devices. I'm always curious to know "What are you thinking or what drives your decision to play what you play?" and I mean that from ALL of you, from the beginner to the seasoned soloist. It's an interesting question because our notes are the end product of a compositional process; one that might be informed by our discussions/observations here.

So what do you think of when the void of silence meets the movements of your fingers?
Sometimes I listen to players and I hear "scales and arpeggios". Cool- but I'm waiting for the idea.
Sometimes I hear thinking a lot about what I was practicing. Keep at it; it's going to come together. -but it's not there yet.
Sometimes I hear the wandering struggle to keep the space filled with notes. This is uncomfortable and yet full of untapped potential.
Sometimes I hear a very personal and intentional blending of the familiar and the unexpected, a fresh and thoughtful idea with each phrase and I think YES!

I was looking at the first passage, from the point of a composer's phrase. Strong opening phrase even before the first beat. Followed by a thoughtful pause in bar one. That ends with with a completed thought, concise and strong use of two notes, then the bar ends with another pickup note to bar 2, the 5th of D leading to the tonic. That's a really nice feeling of propulsion into a new change. Cool. That scale run leads right up to the next change, again before the 3rd beat. That G7, I kinda hear an answer to the ascending phrase of the D-7 answered by a bluesy phrase where that G is actually part of a blues descending line. It just feels like a bluesy response to a set up to me; and the resolution to the G root.
The last bar of the phrase is a nice dramatic end to the phrase through the use of use of chromatic passing notes and a sequenced series of thirds to a chord tone.

That's the notes, (and just my take) but let's put ourselves into the driver's seat and look at C7 D-7 G7 C7. It's the I chord and when we see that in a blues, what do we see? and what can this etude give us that we wouldn't have thought of ourselves off the bat? And how might we practice this?

Well a few things that I like:
The use of pickup notes to set up tonality in the next bar. This takes planning and ear comfort to know that sound, because if you're waiting for the tonal starting gun at the bar line, you'll never get that "jump". I've looped changes and then started to develop a vocabulary of pickup phrases that feed into chord tones. It really makes a nice energy.

Use of space. Waiting until the 2nd or even longer, to begin a phrase. Phrases can begin in many ways. Explore the impact of placing your opening in different parts of a measure.

Ascending and descending lines. Bar 3 steps up and leaps down. That feels like running up a hill and sliding down. There's a rush from a well set up run. In this case, even more to my ear because it sounds blusey.

Introducing tension through a phrase. This one begins with space and diatonic ideas and evolves into an element of surprise in the final C7 measure. Chromatics are a nice way to introduce the unexpected. Too often they're used as a justification of "What do I do now?" or "oops, didn't mean that... oh yeah, that's a chromatic... I meant that!" but used with intention, a break from the expected, through chromatics of sequenced notes breaking up a scale... that can make a dramatic end of a phrase.

Phrases can end with long notes, short notes, the unexpected... but personally, I don't like to crowd a good idea by rushing into a new phrase, or playing too much to "fill up the space". Look at the next bar after our phrase. Rest. I find that one of the hardest things for a player to do is to use space/silence, 'cuz you're a PLAYER and that's not PLAYING, right? Silence is part of your vocabulary. How can you use it?

Those are some semi-random thoughts after the first phrase. Play around with and invent a new thought process, and see how it sounds.

Just a random two cents-
David

[Michael Kaye]

I thought it'd be kind of interesting to talk about process when we're soloing and the role of phrases and devices.

So what do you think of when the void of silence meets the movements of your fingers?
Sometimes I listen to players and I hear "scales and arpeggios". Cool- but I'm waiting for the idea.
Sometimes I hear thinking a lot about what I was practicing. Keep at it; it's going to come together. -but it's not there yet.
Sometimes I hear the wandering struggle to keep the space filled with notes. This is uncomfortable and yet full of untapped potential.
Sometimes I hear a very personal and intentional blending of the familiar and the unexpected, a fresh and thoughtful idea with each phrase and I think YES!

Im finding I don't use silence enough. I think this comes from my rock heritage where "space" or "silence" means a long sustaining note, not actual silence.

Im also noticing that my old habits seem to include the thought : 'scale-scale-scale-arpeggio', 'scale scale scale scale-arpeggio-scale scale', whereas, I'm noticing a much deeper and more thoughtful rhythm is happening in these phrases which I'm finding is more interesting and adding a 3rd dimension to the actual notes. I can't think of a better way to describe it.

Some of these observations are coming from skipping ahead and seeing multiple ideas linked together, admittedly.

I was looking at the first passage, from the point of a composer's phrase. Strong opening phrase even before the first beat. Followed by a thoughtful pause in bar one. That ends with with a completed thought, concise and strong use of two notes, then the bar ends with another pickup note to bar 2, the 5th of D leading to the tonic. That's a really nice feeling of propulsion into a new change. Cool. That scale run leads right up to the next change, again before the 3rd beat. That G7, I kinda hear an answer to the ascending phrase of the D-7 answered by a bluesy phrase where that G is actually part of a blues descending line. It just feels like a bluesy response to a set up to me; and the resolution to the G root.
The last bar of the phrase is a nice dramatic end to the phrase through the use of use of chromatic passing notes and a sequenced series of thirds to a chord tone.

Nice analysis.

Well a few things that I like:
The use of pickup notes to set up tonality in the next bar. This takes planning and ear comfort to know that sound, because if you're waiting for the tonal starting gun at the bar line, you'll never get that "jump". I've looped changes and then started to develop a vocabulary of pickup phrases that feed into chord tones. It really makes a nice energy.

In some way, I see the descending A minor triad as a pick up to the D-7 G7 C7 phrase. It sets it up, which is probably just a restatement of what you're describing as well.

Ascending and descending lines. Bar 3 steps up and leaps down. That feels like running up a hill and sliding down. There's a rush from a well set up run. In this case, even more to my ear because it sounds blusey.

yes, the 3rd dimension and rhythmic element I'm starting to see.

Introducing tension through a phrase. This one begins with space and diatonic ideas and evolves into an element of surprise in the final C7 measure. Chromatics are a nice way to introduce the unexpected. Too often they're used as a justification of "What do I do now......"".......

Phrases can end with long notes, short notes, the unexpected... but personally, I don't like to crowd a good idea by rushing into a new phrase, or playing too much to "fill up the space". Look at the next bar after our phrase. Rest. I find that one of the hardest things for a player to do is to use space/silence, 'cuz you're a PLAYER and that's not PLAYING, right? Silence is part of your vocabulary. How can you use it?

these are exactly the kinds of habits and traps I'm looking to get out of, lol. This is a great exercise and I'm really enjoying it. I can't believe how difficult it is to intentionally use silence. We talk about it all the time. Everybody knows this, but man, it is more difficult to execute than I expected.

[diminix]

Im finding I don't use silence enough. I think this comes from my rock heritage where "space" or "silence" means a long sustaining note, not actual silence.
[...]
I can't believe how difficult it is to intentionally use silence. We talk about it all the time. Everybody knows this, but man, it is more difficult to execute than I expected.

Although for me as a beginner the biggest problem is to have something to play at all, it is hard to use silence intentionally. I would have expected that playing nothing would make things easier, but it is not. I find Hal Crook's book How to improvise very helpful in this regard. The book is starting with a chapter "Pacing - The Play/Rest Approach", which drills you different combinations of playing and resting. For me, these exercises are an enlightening experience...

For some days now I am working through Halsted Street Blues, and the rests are like life saving islands in the brawly flow of eighth notes. I am always happy to reach one right before I'm going to drown.

Robert

[TH]

I'm noticing a much deeper and more thoughtful rhythm is happening in these phrases which I'm finding is more interesting and adding a 3rd dimension to the actual notes. I can't think of a better way to describe it.


yes, the 3rd dimension and rhythmic element I'm starting to see.

Bingo! In my town, there's a tenor legend, Jerry Bergonzi. His soloing is nothing short of boundlessly amazing. And I talked with him about the priorities of a good solo. He said "Rhythm. Rhythm is everything." Then he took a passage over some changes and played them properly, every note proper for the complex harmony. It was impressive but it was pretty straight forward. Then he played that passage, notes I didn't recognize but obviously from some place on the tonal and chromatic spectrum I'd never use. But the phrases were concise, rhythmically compelling and absolutely vocal. He resolved it all in the ending tonality and whew! it was exciting. He said "The first one had all the right notes but nothing interesting with the rhythm. The second had all the wrong notes but it had rhythm. You decide which one worked better." (Of course when you're that good, it's really HARD to actually play something wrong. Everything he does works...)

So yes, if you're learning to solo, spend a little time mastering the short, medium and long phrase. All different animals. Listen to Sonny Rollins. Listen to Joe Henderson. Listen to good drummers.

I'll address rhythm as I look at the next couple of phrases. I'm so glad you're hearing this. Polish your sense of swing too; there are many dialects of swing. Find an appropriate one for your notes and perfect it.

You'll see-
David