Bebop Technique

[pamosmusic]

Late to the thread but wanna second this bigtime. Ive always used four finger CG left hand technique since I started when I was 13. I never took lessons and I was trying to play power chords along with punk songs and I think it was the only way I could play a full 3 note power chord. Fast forward a couple years and I had discovered Joe Satriani and was obsessed with all his legato (or whatever you wanna call it) stuff. I would spend hours a day practicing it in folk guitar position and with a super bent left wrist. And lo and behold, my wrist started popping and my hand started tingling, to the point where I couldn't play guitar anymore. I went to the doctor to see what could be done and he suggested I stop playing guitar, to which I responded by laughing at him, only to realize he wasn't joking. But when it became apparent to him that that wasn't an option for me (I was already hooked and practicing 3 hours nearly every day), he sent me to physical therapy. So I spent a summer at 16 going to a sports therapist to get my guitar induced cubital tunnel syndrome treated (same as carpal, but the nerve to the pinky).

Since then I've changed to playing in classical position and to keeping my left wrist straight. Every once in a while I'll practice something that will cause a flare up, but for the most part it's not an issue anymore.

Reflecting on that makes me appreciate how valuable a teacher can be. I've always been a bit stubborn and indepent so I may have done it anyway, but it would've been nice to have someone show me the right way.

This happened to me word for word except that the carpal tunnel set in when I was 22.

I don't play in classical position, but I keep my strap really short and basically wear my guitar like a bow-tie, which ends up in about the same place. Flares up now and again (actually just the other week) but it's usually associated with my forays into drop-2 inversions.

[Irishmuso]

Some great ideas and exercises in videos on MyMusicMasterclass from Bruce Forman (bebop guitar), Pasquale Grasso's series and Mike Moreno (sound, technique and articulation).

Bruce uses his pinky; Pasquale uses his pinky; Mike uses his pinky. 'Nuff said?

[pamosmusic]

Update on this stuff. I've been trying to get some videos together, working mostly with the turns because I have a lot of that put together in PDFs so far. I will post some as I've got them.

Thinking about reviving my currently-defunct Patreon page and putting some longer form versions of stuff up there for $1 or something just to keep myself working on it. We'll see.

I've got lots done with the turns and some pretty cool stuff I've lifted from a few Clifford Brown solos I've transcribed.

Got some stuff together with the accent patterns, though there isn't much to really write out with that.

I've also got one of my arpeggio studies done, based on a lick I lifted from Grant Green.

And then some things with grace notes––slides and hammer/pulls, again really leaning on Clifford for that stuff.

Goddam trumpet is so expressive.

[Christian Miller]

Late to the thread but wanna second this bigtime. Ive always used four finger CG left hand technique since I started when I was 13. I never took lessons and I was trying to play power chords along with punk songs and I think it was the only way I could play a full 3 note power chord. Fast forward a couple years and I had discovered Joe Satriani and was obsessed with all his legato (or whatever you wanna call it) stuff. I would spend hours a day practicing it in folk guitar position and with a super bent left wrist. And lo and behold, my wrist started popping and my hand started tingling, to the point where I couldn't play guitar anymore. I went to the doctor to see what could be done and he suggested I stop playing guitar, to which I responded by laughing at him, only to realize he wasn't joking. But when it became apparent to him that that wasn't an option for me (I was already hooked and practicing 3 hours nearly every day), he sent me to physical therapy. So I spent a summer at 16 going to a sports therapist to get my guitar induced cubital tunnel syndrome treated (same as carpal, but the nerve to the pinky).

Since then I've changed to playing in classical position and to keeping my left wrist straight. Every once in a while I'll practice something that will cause a flare up, but for the most part it's not an issue anymore.

Reflecting on that makes me appreciate how valuable a teacher can be. I've always been a bit stubborn and indepent so I may have done it anyway, but it would've been nice to have someone show me the right way.

It doesn’t help that GP’s are clueless about this stuff. What sorted me was an anatomical diagram in a CG book. I forget which one.


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[Christian Miller]

Bruce uses his pinky; Pasquale uses his pinky; Mike uses his pinky. 'Nuff said?

Wes, Grant Green, Charlie Christian, George Benson, Pat Metheny and Pete Bernstein use mostly three fingers for melodic playing. ‘Nuff said?

So, not really.

It’s not really about the pinky. It’s about the hand and wrist position. If you adopt a pronated thumb-over position fretting more with the flats of the fingers, you’ll naturally be less inclined to use your little finger but that doesn’t mean you’ll never use it.

Getting hung up on the little finger is focussing on a superficial aspect.

The list of players who used a pronated thumb-over position for melody playing represents a credible history of guitar. There are also many who use CG, but I feel (haven’t done the numbers lol) that that’s become more common in the past few decades.

The thing about technique is that it involves trade offs. It’s good to have an idea of what compromises you are making. It’s rare to find a CG posture player with the vibe and grease of a flat fingered pronated player, but on the other hand such a player is obviously not well set up for polyphonic playing. It ties into your personality and priorities as a player. It’s not a right or wrong thing.

There’s also a spectrum of points in between. Bruce’s technique does not really look like Pasquale’s - perhaps more violinistic - it’s still recognisably more classical than say, Jim Mullen.

My theory is there’s something psychological that means ‘schooled players’ get a bit testy when it is suggested that their schooling isn’t the alpha and omega. I want to say that it’s not that the schooling is wrong, it’s just interesting to look at the diversity of approaches to come to a deeper understanding beyond ‘this is how I was taught.’

I doubt I’ll become a three fingered player, it’s hard to undo so many years of habit, but it’s fun experimenting with it. Otoh as a teacher, I tend to operate an ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it’ policy for technique.

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[Rograt]

That’s nuts. That’s not how violin works! You don’t just dabble in it for a couple of years lol. Unless you are Allan apparently.

Velvet Darkness! A mixed album that AH said he wished he never made. I still have it on vinyl (probably because when I went crazy and sold a bunch, no one wanted it). I had no idea that was him playing the violin. I assumed it was all part of the U.K. sessions.

[pamosmusic]

It doesn’t help that GP’s are clueless about this stuff. What sorted me was an anatomical diagram in a CG book. I forget which one.


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Mine told me to stop playing for a month and take four advil four times a day.

Me: “wont it just get worse as soon as I start again?”

doctor: ………

[jazznylon]

I'm not sure about having to adopt the classical position completedly when using the 'legit' 4 finger stuff. Flamenco players come to mind for example

[pamosmusic]

I'm not sure about having to adopt the classical position completedly when using the 'legit' 4 finger stuff. Flamenco players come to mind for example

Thats a good point.

The thing I like about the classical stuff is that there are very very specific instructions and a very clear purpose. Straight wrist and healthy posture. So if you get a straight wrist and healthy posture, then there are a few ways of getting there I guess.

[pamosmusic]

So here's the first page of these. I'll try to post something soon with how I've been working on them.

Dropbox - articulation technique - turns pg 1 - Score.pdf - Simplify your life

[lawson-stone]

On the position thing, I started out classical with the guitar on the left thigh, then went folk with it on the right, but when I came to jazz I noticed Joe Pass tends to take a sort of hybrid posture. The guitar isn't back on the right thigh like maybe Barney Kessel, but it's not the elevated left thigh either. It looks like he adjusted a strap while standing, and then simply sat down and adjusted the strap to keep the guitar secure. Sort of half and half. That's how I've tended to position myself with the guitar as well and haven't had any left-hand issues except once using a finger exerciser I pinched a nerve. Took a while to get over that!

[pamosmusic]

It looks like he adjusted a strap while standing, and then simply sat down and adjusted the strap to keep the guitar secure.

Thats what I did. Set the strap to be the least possible difference between standing and sitting and then never take it off again as long as I live.

… except once using a finger exerciser I pinched a nerve. Took a while to get over that!

Im pretty sure hell is filled with guitar players insisting you try these things.

I have a hard time thinking of something worse for the wrists.

[lawson-stone]

Thats what I did. Set the strap to be the least possible difference between standing and sitting and then never take it off again as long as I live.



Im pretty sure hell is filled with guitar players insisting you try these things.

I have a hard time thinking of something worse for the wrists.

Really. I thought it would be a big help until I felt the tingling pain radiating up my arm. It was about a year getting over that. I'm much more careful about my left hand now! I "exercise" it by practicing!

[pamosmusic]

Really. I thought it would be a big help until I felt the tingling pain radiating up my arm. It was about a year getting over that. I'm much more careful about my left hand now! I "exercise" it by practicing!

Speaking of classical guitar technique:

“We use weight, not strength.”

[pauln]

In classical violin technique the finger force on the finger board is applied at the joint at the base of the finger, not the two joints above it. This helps realize and maintain the proper curve of the fingers, especially the fourth finger. The applied force is light and wholly by fingertip contact. I imagine the classical guitar technique is similar with some accommodation for barres.

[Mick-7]

I'm pretty sure hell is filled with guitar players insisting you try these things (i.e., finger exerciser). I have a hard time thinking of something worse for the wrists.

I believe that falls under the adage, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

[GuyBoden]

So here's the first page of these. I'll try to post something soon with how I've been working on them.

Dropbox - articulation technique - turns pg 1 - Score.pdf - Simplify your life

Excellent stuff, I think those 'Turns' sound great.

Inspired by your examples, I've been practicing with some slightly modified simple 'Turns' over Major iiVI's, maybe they sound a bit like Clifford Brown's style.

These are for simple root chord tones on the 1st and 3rd down beats:

[pamosmusic]

Excellent stuff, I think those 'Turns' sound great.

Inspired by your examples, I've been practicing with some slightly modified simple 'Turns' over Major iiVI's, maybe they sound a bit like Clifford Brown's style.

These are for simple root chord tones on the 1st and 3rd down beats:

Oh nice!

And you’d better believe it I’ve got a whole big section of Clifford turns

[AllanAllen]

Question for Peter and GuyBoden.

I'm slowly learning to write music along with everything else. Do either of you see a benefit to learning on the page before going to a program MuseScore? That's been my process, but now I'm thinking youtube musescore tutorials would be beneficial in two ways. Grips on the actual writing and how to use the program....

Just something I thought of.

[Reg]

Question... when using turns, like Peter posted... do you hear the turns as implied V chord of Target.

Like A7b13 going to D-7... D7 going to G7 etc....

Or do you use and hear the turns as embellishment technique ?

[Christian Miller]

Or if you are one of the cool kids, you could hear a V-I as a polyphonic enclosure

V7alt I is a chromatic enclosure (with one lame common tone. BOO.)


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[Reg]

Or if you are one of the cool kids, you could hear a V-I as a polyphonic enclosure

V7alt I is a chromatic enclosure (with one lame common tone. BOO.)


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LOL... sure, but I was in more of a typical Jazz direction....

I'm way past being Cool...LOL

[pamosmusic]

Question... when using turns, like Peter posted... do you hear the turns as implied V chord of Target.

Like A7b13 going to D-7... D7 going to G7 etc....

Or do you use and hear the turns as embellishment technique ?

Embellishment. In practice that's what they are.

I've been pretty obsessed with articulation generally for a long time, so this is something I've spoken to trumpet player friends about a lot. The turns are things that fall easily into their valve combinations with no awkward shifts in the harmonic series. Meaning they're not there to imply harmony, they're there because the fingers fall easily onto those valves.

EDIT: more time now, so some other points. The diatonic turns like I've got up there are a little more pianistic for the same reason. They work a lot on the 1 2 3 fingers (thumb to middle) when they're moving, so those turns are often just the notes that fall on the middle finger when they're playing the note that's on the index, etc. So turns are embellishments in the truest sense of the word. They're ornaments. Superfluous to the harmony, and played, in the particular way they’re played, mostly because they're convenient. But they're kind of essential to the authentic sound of jazz music to my ear.

[lawson-stone]

LOL... sure, but I was in more of a typical Jazz direction....

I'm way past being Cool...LOL

The Geezer's Paradox: the older you get, the less you care about being cool, which in fact, makes you.... cool.

[pamosmusic]

Question for Peter and GuyBoden.

I'm slowly learning to write music along with everything else. Do either of you see a benefit to learning on the page before going to a program MuseScore? That's been my process, but now I'm thinking youtube musescore tutorials would be beneficial in two ways. Grips on the actual writing and how to use the program....

Just something I thought of.

Totally worth learning a program (I use finale just because that's what i've been using for fifteen years at this point, but it's a dinosaur now).

I would keep learning by hand though, just because you'll have to actually learn the rules for writing rather than having the program make the corrections for you.