controversy continues - John Coltrane / Charlie Parker inspired, Dodecaphonics 2-5-1

[jzucker]

John Coltrane / Charlie Parker inspired, Dodecaphonics 2-5-1 Legato lick in F


After all the controversy with the last 2 dodecaphonics lessons, I decided to demonstrate a simple example over a 2-5-1 in F.


This is a Gm7-C7-FMaj7


But i'm using A Dbdim7 scale (with one chromatic) over the Gm7-C7,
But during the last of the C7, I play an E7b9 arpeggio. This actually harkens all the way back to 1948 when charlie parker utilized this sound over a ii-5-1. He was probably thinking Gm7 G#dim7 Fmaj7/A (Am7).


I take it a little further by thinking of an E7b9 for the first few beats of the FMaj7 before resolving to a more diatonic resolution. The last few notes are compatible with the E7b9/#9 and the FMaj9.


If you listen to this, I think you can agree that it does *NOT* sound dissonant. It shouldn't. These sounds have been around for 75 years!


Let's not argue. If you don't like these sounds, post an example of sounds you *DO* like in your own thread.

#JohnColtrane #charlieparker
#sheetsofsound
#jazzguitarlessons #guitarlessons
#jazzguitar #modernjazzguitar #jazzguitarriffs
#gibsonhollowbody #dodecaphonics #altereddominant

[AllanAllen]

Controversy?

[jzucker]

Controversy?

haha, there's been a lot of controversy/hate over the dodecaphonics clips.

[AllanAllen]

Oh sorry to hear about that, you make great stuff, don't let the "never were, never will be" crowd get you down. That being said, I'm off to look at the dumpster fire.

[AllanAllen]

Seems like someone didn't get the joke with Christian. I did appreciate the Danny Gatton turn, just a phenomenal talent. I hope the documentary comes out this year.

[mr. beaumont]

I wonder if the reason some people can't (or more likely refuse) to hear these is the fact that they are over a straight 8th/fusion-y sounding background?

I don't have it under my fingers very well yet, but I just tried it with a swing feel (quite a bit slower) over the ii V in F and it absolutely works.

[AllanAllen]

I wonder if the reason some people can't (or more likely refuse) to hear these is the fact that they are over a straight 8th/fusion-y sounding background?

I don't have it under my fingers very well yet, but I just tried it with a swing feel (quite a bit slower) over the ii V in F and it absolutely works.

That's my hangup for sure. I just assumed it was fusion stuff. That 15 note Martino stuff looked really cool though.

[jzucker]

That's my hangup for sure. I just assumed it was fusion stuff. That 15 note Martino stuff looked really cool though.

I thought we had this conversation before. The fusion lines are just jazz lines with overdrive. There's no difference in harmony. I did have an interesting conversation with a guy after I recorded a benson riff but with a solidbody and overdrive. A guy told me that I used completely different phrasing when in fact, I made a point of using the exact same picking and swing feel. But he insisted he could hear it even if I couldn't and advised me to slow it down so I'd be able to hear what he could at normal speed.

[jzucker]

I wonder if the reason some people can't (or more likely refuse) to hear these is the fact that they are over a straight 8th/fusion-y sounding background?

I don't have it under my fingers very well yet, but I just tried it with a swing feel (quite a bit slower) over the ii V in F and it absolutely works.

the biggest detractor was on thegearpage which is predominantly a rock/blues/metal forum. The guy who raised the biggest objection said he wasn't interested in reharmonizing or superimposing chords that "weren't there". But a lot of people here have felt the need to negatively weigh in on dodecaphonics in general. But by the same token, a bunch of folks on the forum have said they don't like coltrane and that he is just playing patterns.

All that's fine. I have no problem with people's varying tastes. It's just that I wouldn't do that on their output. Why bother? Post your own thread, your own videos, your own examples and be a force for love and positivity.

[pamosmusic]

But by the same token, a bunch of folks on the forum have said they don't like coltrane and that he is just playing patterns.

lol

[mr. beaumont]

a bunch of folks on the forum have said they don't like coltrane and that he is just playing patterns.
.

What's that Mark Twain quote about arguing with idiots?

[jzucker]

What's that Mark Twain quote about arguing with idiots?

again, people have their preferences. I have no issue with that. It's when folks make declarative statements about goodness or deservedness that starts to remind me of political-rally speech. I think there really is the notation - that some folks have - that they want to protect the masses by what they perceive as "pulling back the curtain"...

This is why they continue to argue and make negative comments about other people's playing, creativity or output in a public forum.

Some of that stuff - like the guy saying that Ben Eunson wasn't making changes - is just embarrassing and when you say something like that in public, it reflects more about you than Ben.

OTOH, even Ben is not immune to hurtful comments. We all have to remember that even great players like Ben are human and have feelings. Being a jazz artist is a struggle and a hustle. We always lament the fact that the music we love is not more popular and yet, we seem to be so critical and judgmental about those who are out there hustling...

[pamosmusic]

again, people have their preferences. I have no issue with that. It's when folks make declarative statements about goodness or deservedness that starts to remind me of political-rally speech. I think there really is the notation - that some folks have - that they want to protect the masses by what they perceive as "pulling back the curtain"...

This is why they continue to argue and make negative comments about other people's playing, creativity or output in a public forum.

Some of that stuff - like the guy saying that Ben Eunson wasn't making changes - is just embarrassing and when you say something like that in public, it reflects more about you than Ben.

OTOH, even Ben is not immune to hurtful comments. We all have to remember that even great players like Ben are human and have feelings. Being a jazz artist is a struggle and a hustle. We always lament the fact that the music we love is not more popular and yet, we seem to be so critical and judgmental about those who are out there hustling...

I used to sub for Ben before he was a thing. A buddy of mine played standards in a guitar, sax, and bass trio at Bar Next Door. When Ben couldn’t make it, I would play guitar. I went once when the regular three were there and saw Ben play … and let me tell you …

That dude can make the changes if he feels like it.

Whew.

[AllanAllen]

I thought we had this conversation before. The fusion lines are just jazz lines with overdrive. There's no difference in harmony. I did have an interesting conversation with a guy after I recorded a benson riff but with a solidbody and overdrive. A guy told me that I used completely different phrasing when in fact, I made a point of using the exact same picking and swing feel. But he insisted he could hear it even if I couldn't and advised me to slow it down so I'd be able to hear what he could at normal speed.

We absolutely did have this conversation before.

[Mick-7]

Originally Posted by jzucker: "But by the same token, a bunch of folks on the forum have said they don't like coltrane and that he is just playing patterns."

Well, he kind of is on his Giant Steps album, but that was just a brief phase in his long and remarkable evolution.

Has anyone ever played a lyrical solo on Giant Steps? It always sounds like an exercise to me.

[pamosmusic]

I thought we had this conversation before. The fusion lines are just jazz lines with overdrive. There's no difference in harmony. I did have an interesting conversation with a guy after I recorded a benson riff but with a solidbody and overdrive. A guy told me that I used completely different phrasing when in fact, I made a point of using the exact same picking and swing feel. But he insisted he could hear it even if I couldn't and advised me to slow it down so I'd be able to hear what he could at normal speed.

This is the point where I would say "thanks, cat." in the most condescending voice I could muster.

[jzucker]

This is the point where I would say "thanks, cat." in the most condescending voice I could muster.

I try to keep from being nasty but I did say, "so wait, you're going to tell me about *MY* phrasing ?" That's when he advised me to slow it down so I could hear what he was talking about...

[Christian Miller]

Seems like someone didn't get the joke with Christian. I did appreciate the Danny Gatton turn, just a phenomenal talent. I hope the documentary comes out this year.

Oh god what have I done now?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

What's that Mark Twain quote about arguing with idiots?

The idiots are usually so sure of their opinions…..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

I try to keep from being nasty but I did say, "so wait, you're going to tell me about *MY* phrasing ?" That's when he advised me to slow it down so I could hear what he was talking about...

You can’t persuade them otherwise, it doesn’t matter what you do…. I think if I’ve learned anything at all over the past decade being on YouTube it’s how to sniff out and shut down these people, but I wouldn’t bank on it lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mr. beaumont]

again, people have their preferences. I have no issue with that. It's when folks make declarative statements about goodness or deservedness that starts to remind me of political-rally speech. I think there really is the notation - that some folks have - that they want to protect the masses by what they perceive as "pulling back the curtain"...

This is why they continue to argue and make negative comments about other people's playing, creativity or output in a public forum.

Some of that stuff - like the guy saying that Ben Eunson wasn't making changes - is just embarrassing and when you say something like that in public, it reflects more about you than Ben.

OTOH, even Ben is not immune to hurtful comments. We all have to remember that even great players like Ben are human and have feelings. Being a jazz artist is a struggle and a hustle. We always lament the fact that the music we love is not more popular and yet, we seem to be so critical and judgmental about those who are out there hustling...

You're officially a bigger person than I am. I can't abide that willful close mindedness anymore.

[pamosmusic]

You're officially a bigger person than I am. I can't abide that willful close mindedness anymore.

Me either. I’ve just gotten better at dismissing it rather than arguing or with it.

“Thanks, cat.”

[AllanAllen]

Oh god what have I done now?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nothing. Your licks are too short was a reference back to your licks are too long.

[rictroll]

Also, note these concepts are good for comping, as well.

[Cunamara]

The idiots are usually so sure of their opinions…..

The Dunning-Kruger effect.