Three fingered technique - actually RIGHT?

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

^ I thought it was this Jimmy Rainey video where he talks about using his thumb in the bass. It is not but it is interesting anyway in the context of this thread.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

^^ It wasn't Jimmy Rainey but Tal Farlow who in conversation with Jody Fisher explains why he started to use his thumb for bass notes:

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

You will find some answers here.

It's interesting.

"Wes did it, therefore we do."

[pamosmusic]

But can we still be friends?

[supersoul]

I will say … I am a hardcore anti-thumb partisan.

them thar ar fightin' words, yer really throwin' down yer thumbless gauntlet!

I'm pro-thumb. It's pretty essential for r&b rhythm playing. It's crucial for muting strings from ringing out, which lets you pick harder, more percussively, with more funk behind it.

Jimi Hendrix used his thumb like crazy. Just watch footage of him playing. Even Purple Haze is half thumb. He had an absurdly long thumb that could almost barre width the entire fretboard. I think his rhythm playing came out of Curtis Mayfield, Cornell Dupree and I really love how they sound.

I just watched part of Tal Farlow's Hot licks video and he uses his thumb a lot, to fret notes on the low E and A strings. Plus he uses his pinky up top. Really cool to watch. (Just don't search for Tal Farlow Hot Licks with the SafeSearch™ off on Bing)

But like Jimi I'm for peace so it's not worth me going to war about! Proper classical positioning is better for certain things, definitely. I just never felt as comfortable with it.

[pamosmusic]

People can use their thumbs if they want. It is objectively not great for the wrist unless someone has very long fingers. Not coincidence that people cite Jimi and Tal Farlow in these examples.

Main thing is that I have had carpal tunnel issues in the past. Anything that puts your wrist in extension or flexion while you move the fingers is generally bad news. Look at the shape of an average joes wrist with their thumb over the neck and then look at the wrist shape of a miserable office worker who has carpal tunnel from not using an ergonomic keyboard.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

But can we still be friends?

I might make an exception ...

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

People can use their thumbs if they want. It is objectively not great for the wrist unless someone has very long fingers. Not coincidence that people cite Jimi and Tal Farlow in these examples.

Main thing is that I have had carpal tunnel issues in the past. Anything that puts your wrist in extension or flexion while you move the fingers is generally bad news. Look at the shape of an average joes wrist with their thumb over the neck and then look at the wrist shape of a miserable office worker who has carpal tunnel from not using an ergonomic keyboard.

I was told by a friend with a classical guitar background to take care of my wrist. When I am sitting I am probably angling the guitar the way Charlie Christian did it and when I am standing the guitar is very high and angled away a little from me.

My favorite thumb-over chord is the drop-3 half-diminished with the root resp. minor with the sixth in the bass on the 6th string:

e.g. Am7/b5, 5-x-5-5-4-x, fingering T-x-2-3-1, this one requires angling the hand in the way Christian describes. Try it while comping the Diz intro to 'Round Midnight.

[pamosmusic]

My favorite thumb-over chord is the drop-3 half-diminished with the root resp. minor with the sixth in the bass on the 6th string:

e.g. Am7/b5, 5-x-5-5-4-x, fingering T-x-2-3-1, this one requires angling the hand in the way Christian describes. Try it while comping the Diz intro to 'Round Midnight.

It’s not an academic quibble for me. I’ve used my thumb. It aggravates my wrist issues.

[supersoul]

People can use their thumbs if they want. It is objectively not great for the wrist unless someone has very long fingers. Not coincidence that people cite Jimi and Tal Farlow in these examples.

Main thing is that I have had carpal tunnel issues in the past. Anything that puts your wrist in extension or flexion while you move the fingers is generally bad news. Look at the shape of an average joes wrist with their thumb over the neck and then look at the wrist shape of a miserable office worker who has carpal tunnel from not using an ergonomic keyboard.

Not sure I agree that one is objectively better than the other. I tend to wear the guitar a little lower and the neck is a bit more horizontal than a classical position. If sitting the guitar is usually on my right leg, not my left. I've never had any carpal tunnel/overuse problems, and I've always been aware of when things feel strained. I think it's really important to listen to what your body is telling you, and I've backed off whenever I feel that I'm overdoing something.

Jimi's thumb was absurdly long. Mine isn't that. Everyone's body is different, so you have to do what's best for you. For me, it often feels better and less strained to use my thumb. I just checked out my playing and my thumb goes back and forth between over the edge and a more classical position in the back of the neck. It all depends on what I'm trying to play, each position gives a different set of possiblilties. The thing about overuse injuries is doing the exact same thing over and over again, so switching things up is healthy.

[pamosmusic]

Not sure I agree that one is objectively better than the other. I tend to wear the guitar a little lower and the neck is a bit more horizontal than a classical position. If sitting the guitar is usually on my right leg, not my left. I've never had any carpal tunnel/overuse problems, and I've always been aware of when things feel strained. I think it's really important to listen to what your body is telling you, and I've backed off whenever I feel that I'm overdoing something.

Jimi's thumb was absurdly long. Mine isn't that. Everyone's body is different, so you have to do what's best for you. For me, it often feels better and less strained to use my thumb. I just checked out my playing and my thumb goes back and forth between over the edge and a more classical position in the back of the neck. It all depends on what I'm trying to play, each position gives a different set of possiblilties. The thing about overuse injuries is doing the exact same thing over and over again, so switching things up is healthy.

There’s nothing inherently bad about the thumb or about different ways of sitting or holding the guitar. What I usually do with new folks is teach them what their wrists should look like. If you can play the guitar pretty low and have a straight left wrist, then more power to you. If you have a student whose wrist is in extension when they play in lower positions, move the headstock up on the guitar and watch their wrist straighten as it moves.

So those wrist things are important. How you get your wrist to look healthy, and the things you can do while keeping it looking healthy, are less important than that it looks healthy.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah you don’t want to muck around with that stuff. Keep that wrist straight. People’s individual characteristics vary.


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[jackalGreen]

Kudos, all, for a fascinating thread. Such at is, at my basic level of playing, FWIW, I tend to three-finger playing...mostly because that's what other people I like seem to have done and do. Anyway, it's comfortable for me, although it's no problem to add the pinky as needed.

Or you do not have 2 choices for a drop-3 minor with the root in in the bass

like Am7, 5-x-5-5-5, fingered either 2-x-3-3-3-x or T-x-1-1-1.

First, I *am* a thumb-over player! Definitely in Camp Thumb.

But I might be missing something in terminology. Not trying to be a nerd for the sake of it, but by "drop-3" minor, you mean a drop-3 of the third inversion of an Am7 chord, right?

Wondering if I'm not up on terms as used by actual guitarists.

Your G7-->C9 example gave me a nice new trick to play with, since usually am avoiding the lower strings in voicings. Great voicings and easy grips (especially with thumb-over!)

[MarkRhodes]

Jimi Hendrix used his thumb like crazy. Just watch footage of him playing. Even Purple Haze is half thumb. He had an absurdly long thumb that could almost barre width the entire fretboard. I think his rhythm playing came out of Curtis Mayfield, Cornell Dupree and I really love how they sound.

Cornell worked the thumb too. Such a great, influential player.



Barney Kessel was also one not to hide his thumb away.

[Kirk Garrett]

Holy crap! I’ve always thought playing with three fingers was some kind of enormous, crippling blunder for a proper jazz guitarist who doesn’t happen to be a genius. All those sacrosanct fingerings from Jimmy Bruno, and Carol Kaye, for example.

Cool video.

[Kirk Garrett]

Yeah, I think I get it. Still, I like a lot of chromaticism, and lotsa chromatic enclosures etc. There is just no way I could do what I've taught my 4 fingers to do using only 3. Certainly not cleanly, or up to speed, which is ironic I suppose, because clean and fast is what you expect using 3 fingers!

Depends what you play of course. Now, where's that AH video? ...

Good point. I too really love chromatic stuff.

[Christian Miller]

I’ve spent most of the past month playing bebop with three fingers. (I’m a strange fellow lol.) While it’s taking a bit of getting used to, chromaticism is really no problem.


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[MarkRhodes]

Holy crap! I’ve always thought playing with three fingers was some kind of enormous, crippling blunder for a proper jazz guitarist who doesn’t happen to be a genius. All those sacrosanct fingerings from Jimmy Bruno, and Carol Kaye, for example.

Cool video.

"Jimmy Bruno" and "sacrosanct" don't belong in the same sentence.

I'm very familiar with Jimmy's "five fingerings", and Carol's "tips" about fingering too. I learned them. I use them. But some things I play the other way. Life is wide.

[MarkRhodes]

Yeah you don’t want to muck around with that stuff. Keep that wrist straight. People’s individual characteristics vary.

I'm going to start a thread on wrist position because I recently (at 65!) realized something about my own that I had never noticed before AND that if I do something a little different, it makes a big difference.

I mention this here because I will especially want to hear your input on it.

[Kirk Garrett]

"Jimmy Bruno" and "sacrosanct" don't belong in the same sentence.

I'm very familiar with Jimmy's "five fingerings", and Carol's "tips" about fingering too. I learned them. I use them. But some things I play the other way. Life is wide.

Agreed, but I’ve taken lessons with Carol in the past as I’m sure you have also, and both she and Bruno of are serious about the fingerings.


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[Kirk Garrett]

Interesting quote from Jerry Garcia on preferring to use his pinky:

Jerry Garcia: "There’s a thing about playing stoned without having pressure to play competently... People pay a lot of money to see us, so it becomes a matter of professionalism. You don’t want to deliver somebody a clunker just because you’re too high” | GuitarPlayer

Do you use the little finger on your left hand much?

“Yes. Early on, I was lucky enough to have someone point out the usefulness of that finger. As a result it is one of my stronger fingers, and I prefer to use it even more than my ring finger.

“That’s always made me different from most rock guitarists that I know – even the really good ones. I think in rock and roll a lot of guitar players favor something that lets them use the ring finger for greater articulation and vibrato effects. For me, I’ve got to be able to do it with every finger. I find it ridiculous to have to close all my ideas on my ring finger just so I can get a vibrato. That eliminates a lot of possibilities automatically.


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[gvurrdon]

The fact that your third and fourth finger share a tendon just makes it very awkward, and instead of trying to fight it, just avoid it as much as you can.

Interesting...
That made me thing of Simandl fingering for the double bass: "His approach uses the first, second, and fourth fingers of the left hand (the third and fourth operating together as one digit) to stop the strings in the lower register of the instrument..."

[Christian Miller]

I'll just park a fingering that I did for the first A of the bop tune Hot house, which is very chromatic. Someone may find it of interest.



Anyway here's another "three fingered" modern cat, Nir Felder
BIMHUIS TV Presents: NIR FELDER TRIO FT. MICHAEL JANISCH & GARY NOVAK - YouTube

[Christian Miller]

Holy crap! I’ve always thought playing with three fingers was some kind of enormous, crippling blunder for a proper jazz guitarist who doesn’t happen to be a genius. All those sacrosanct fingerings from Jimmy Bruno, and Carol Kaye, for example.

Cool video.

Thanks! It's a different perspective at least. Carol and Jimmy are great of course. I'm not dismissing the value of the four fingered approach. It's what I teach to kids.

[charlieparker]

I've been intentionally mostly using 3 fingers for the last few months and I have come to the following conclusions about it.

1. It makes shifting and moving around the fingerboard more natural and a necessity.
2. If you don't have fairly large hands, I don't think it is viable as your only technique.
3. Personally, I find it puts more strain on my hands.

Where I am with it now is that I use a blend of both techniques, but look for 3 finger fingerings where possible. Definitely think it is something people should experiment with.