DWPS: downward picklslanting

[fep]

Adding the rest stroke.
Short video, simple exercise.
Initially, my fingers are resting on the pickguard. Later, I raise and curl them. The volume immediately increases and the tone seems better. (Though I'm not plugged into an amp, so there's not much in the way of tone to begin with.)

Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions. It means a lot.

That's it. Maybe also try it with a bit more on the edge of the pick, i.e. edge picking slides across the string more easily. It looks like the pick gets hung up just slightly, more so on the up stroke (I watched in slow motion).

[geese_com]

Christian, you're right about the different mechanic. I realized that when I worked on tremolo picking this morning. A different animal. Worth learning but not a priority right now and NOT the same thing as what I'm trying to get down. One damn thing at a time, amirite?


I suppose I need to find some lines / patterns that work best with DWPS. For all the work I've done on picking over the years, I've never been careful about focusing on lines that are set up for certain kinds of picking. (I just want to play lines I already like faster, and those are mainly Herb Ellis lines.)

By the way, how would you describe Herb's picking technique?
Here he is with Kessel doing "Tangerine." They played well together but their picking is very different. Barney whacks the strings harder!
Around :45 there's a good view of Herb's picking. (As good as can get with a camera shooting from in front of him rather than down the neck.) He certainly doesn't get caught between strings and he's not hopping around but I'm not sure what exactly he's doing. (We see his hand but not the pick...)

After watching the close up shots at 25%, Herb looks like he is using DWPS/USX (upstroke escape). His upstrokes take his pick above the plane of the strings and his downstrokes take the pick towards the body of the guitar. I also noticed some rest strokes. There were also down-up-pulloff lines when he would play 3 notes on one string.

[fep]

I struggle with the idea of DWPS and economy picking. I can and do use it but I'm thinking it sure would be nice to use a Molly Tuttle type of technique where she escapes on both upstrokes and downstrokes.

I like this as a picking exercise (right hand of this piano excerpt only, first note on the 4th string 7th fret 3rd finger). Play on the 5th position for the A section and 4th position for the B section. Strict alternate picking so that measure one starts on a downstroke, measure two on an upstroke, every measure alternates that way. For me that is the only way I can get it uptempo. This would be so hard with DWPS and rest strokes.

[timmer]

u-d u-d u-d u-d-d
u-d u-d u-d d-u-d
u-d u-d u-d u-d-d
d-d-u d-u-d u-d-d

And similarly for the other four bars.

Notice the double-down I did going from the end of the third line to beginning of the fourth, i.e. from the G to the F. Snuck in some gypsy. Could do alternate, but sometimes beginning with that down stroke just seems crisper somehow.

Seems fairly straightforward for DWPS. I guess the key is making sure to do the high/low string pairs with up/down.

[timmer]

Oh I also wanted to comment, there is no *requirement* to do rest strokes with this style. Just depends on the situation and desired effect.

[MarkRhodes]

Maybe it depends on the song they're playing, but I would definitely prefer to emulate Herb's quieter right hand. Wonder how often Barney would break a string!

I've wondered that too! He really does whap the strings. Not just in this video. And he seems to hit a bunch of them sometimes even when playing single lines----his left hand muting must come into play there.

[MarkRhodes]

After watching the close up shots at 25%, Herb looks like he is using DWPS/USX (upstroke escape). His upstrokes take his pick above the plane of the strings and his downstrokes take the pick towards the body of the guitar. I also noticed some rest strokes. There were also down-up-pulloff lines when he would play 3 notes on one string.

Herb does a good bit of pulling-off. I hear it in his playing. I never thought much about from a mechanical POV. (I mean, I know how to do pull-offs, but I never thought much about doing a pull-off in order to make a string change smoother. This may be why I struggle with certain passages...)

Here I am playing one of Herb's 8-bar phrases over rhythm changes (the A section). I've known this line for some time, so I'm NOT playing it with any thought of which stroke I switch strings on or anything like that. It's taken pretty slow just so I can see what the heck I'm doing and maybe figure out what I need to do better.

[christianm77]

It's borderline infuriating watching Stephane casually blow through some of those passages, but I respect the years and years of practice he has put in to make it look effortless. Your other point references the frequency of which Django used those chromatic runs almost as a point of ornamentation, which means you need to learn to do them to sound somewhat authentic.

I'm also playing the solo with two fingers, which also demonstrates (to me) not only how brilliant Django was as a composer and player, but his deep musical understanding. Incredible technician, absolutely, but it was his mastery of musical vocabulary that strikes me time after time. Django tells you everything he's going to do in the solo during the first three chords (Csus2 to Am).

That sounds proper. Maybe I’ll get back in Django at some point and that sounds like a good thing to do. I did a few of his solos and it’s always amazing what he gets up to. A very progressive player harmonically as well...

[JSanta]

That sounds proper. Maybe I’ll get back in Django at some point and that sounds like a good thing to do. I did a few of his solos and it’s always amazing what he gets up to. A very progressive player harmonically as well...

I think you're a very accomplished musician, revisiting the Django stuff is nice to delve into different harmonic territory and open up new ideas. I don't have near the skill/knowledge level you do as a musician, but it never hurts to learn some Django

[christianm77]

I think you're a very accomplished musician, revisiting the Django stuff is nice to delve into different harmonic territory and open up new ideas. I don't have near the skill/knowledge level you do as a musician, but it never hurts to learn some Django

Thanks and, yes, I totally agree. It’s all there in the work of your favourite musicians.

[Shadow of the Sun]

I'd just like to bring up the fact that pickslanting is now deprecated terminology within the system Troy uses for analysis.

There's a thread on his forum where he explains how he categorises things now: One-page explainer on playing scales with alternate picking — overview of what we know! - Playing Technique - The Cracking the Code Forum

[christianm77]

I like that Troy has evolved his ideas over time and as he learns more.

[christianm77]

As I understand it all DWPS are UPX players, but not all UPX players are DWPS players. Troy seems quite keen to clear up this confusion between DWPS/UPS as he actually answered one of my comments about in on his YouTube channel. Obviously his ideas are revision constantly, but a lot of his older ideas are in circulation among guitar players.

[Lobomov]

I'd just like to bring up the fact that pickslanting is now deprecated terminology within the system Troy uses for analysis.

There's a thread on his forum where he explains how he categorises things now: One-page explainer on playing scales with alternate picking — overview of what we know! - Playing Technique - The Cracking the Code Forum

It's just a question of putting the horse in front of the cart of the cart behind the horse in my humble opinion.

Old terminology:
If you use use one of these two tecniques (DWPS,UWPS) then at this point in time your pick is going to be buried or escape the strings. If it is buried then you're forced to use some sort of solution (Sweeping, Swiping, Hammer-on, Pull off).

You can combine these two and switch mid sequence (two-way pick slanting), but that can get awkward at times or you can choose a technique that never gets buried like cross-picking, but those come at a cost of lower maximum speed.


New terminology:
At this point in time you're going to perform an upstroke (or alternatively a downstroke). If you want to be able to change strings without any obstacles then you need to choose a technique that is UPX. Your possibilities are (insert UPS picking styles)


New vs. old
The strength of the new terminology is that it focuses on escaping the strings, but has the alternative solutions as secondary (sweeping, swiping, hammer-ons, pull-offs).

The old terminology was more practical or player based and thus ended up with the alternatives to string escaping on the center stage.


The only reason to prefer new terminology is that you don't risk getting the impression that you need to look yourself into a DWPS style or similar. Troy's Cracking the Code was 100% DWPS focused and had a lot of players going "FUCK I'm slanting my pick wrong .. I need to relearn everything!". Now the different techniques be it pickslant or what not are offered like a tasty buffet.

[timmer]

True about the lingo change. And in my own efforts to use DWPS/USX/whatever, I quickly found myself backing off the intentional, aggressive forward lean of the pick. Mainly because I was having trouble avoiding muting the playing string with my middle finger.

So I'm using a close to neutral pick slant, close to what I've always used in the past, and find that clearing the strings on the upstrokes still works just great. On electric for sure. If I ever had to play more acoustic, I suppose I might want to dig in more.

We just need a catchier phrase to refer to this general technique.

[MarkRhodes]

As I understand it all DWPS are UPX players, but not all UPX players are DWPS players. Troy seems quite keen to clear up this confusion between DWPS/UPS as he actually answered one of my comments about in on his YouTube channel. Obviously his ideas are revision constantly, but a lot of his older ideas are in circulation among guitar players.

It's USX: UpStrokeXscape. ;o)

I agree that once can be a DWPS player without being an USX player. I like the USX motion. That seems most natural to me. I think it's what I was actually doing before---years ago---I tried to "fix" my picking! I did have bad habits but they had more to do with hand position (--I DID "string hop"---too much Keith Richards visual influence in my youth???) than with actually picking.

But I think DWPS is good for me too. It really cuts down on the wayward hand motions to which I long was prone.

[MarkRhodes]

I'd just like to bring up the fact that pickslanting is now deprecated terminology within the system Troy uses for analysis.

There's a thread on his forum where he explains how he categorises things now: One-page explainer on playing scales with alternate picking — overview of what we know! - Playing Technique - The Cracking the Code Forum

I pasted that into a Word document and printed it for ready reference.

[CarlD]

You could always try to do all these options at once, a la Mark O’Connor ?

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[Shadow of the Sun]

As I understand it all DWPS are UPX players, but not all UPX players are DWPS players. Troy seems quite keen to clear up this confusion between DWPS/UPS as he actually answered one of my comments about in on his YouTube channel. Obviously his ideas are revision constantly, but a lot of his older ideas are in circulation among guitar players.

Not necessarily - analysing Andy Wood's playing is what got Troy to reconfigure his lingo, and he realised that even with a pronated wrist (what we'd think of as DWPS) you can do down-stroke escape pickstrokes by using wrist extension and flexion.

[christianm77]

Not necessarily - analysing Andy Wood's playing is what got Troy to reconfigure his lingo, and he realised that even with a pronated wrist (what we'd think of as DWPS) you can do down-stroke escape pickstrokes by using wrist extension and flexion.

Good point. It’s actually what I’m trying to do for things like 26-2 which are flatly unpossible with Dwps

[christianm77]

It's USX: UpStrokeXscape. ;o)

I agree that once can be a DWPS player without being an USX player. I like the USX motion. That seems most natural to me. I think it's what I was actually doing before---years ago---I tried to "fix" my picking! I did have bad habits but they had more to do with hand position (--I DID "string hop"---too much Keith Richards visual influence in my youth???) than with actually picking.

But I think DWPS is good for me too. It really cuts down on the wayward hand motions to which I long was prone.

I still think UPX makes much more sense than USX.

[MarkRhodes]

I still think UPX makes much more sense than USX.

To eech his oan.

[Lobomov]

Good point. It’s actually what I’m trying to do for things like 26-2 which are flatly unpossible with Dwps

If push comes to shove, there is no legato to help you or anything ... Can't you just swipe?

[christianm77]

If push comes to shove, there is no legato to help you or anything ... Can't you just swipe?

I don’t think I really know what that is.

Does that help with descending triad figures?

[Lobomov]

I don’t think I really know what that is.

Does that help with descending triad figures?

Oh descending triads in DWPS ... That's challenging to say the least


It was tongue in cheek, tho serious enough ... A swipe (not to be confused with a sweep) is just ignoring string hopping and picking right thru the string that is in the way. Some players will mute this strings (mainly the rock crowd like Michael Angelo Batio) and some don't give a f... (Acoustic players like late 70s Al Di Meola when he was playing with McLaughlin and Paco, but someone like Paul Gilbert will do it unmuted too )

4 min vid

24 min vid

Edit: I doubt that it is useful for descending triads in DWPS tho, but knowing that it exist is fun