Did Tal Farlow prove adult learners can become virtuosos?

[Tal_175]

According to his Wikipedia page "He taught himself how to play guitar, which he started when he was twenty-two years old."*
Now following that sentence there is statement about him learning chord melodies on a mandolin. So may be he started playing mandolin at a younger age. Not sure. If so, that means the title of the thread isn't true.

I also got my first guitar in the first half of my twenties. Coincidentally, I also started on a mandolin at the age of 7. But I didn't play very seriously. Similarities end there
My goals have never been to become a virtuoso player, but I find the subject interesting. When I was taking (elective) courses from a university jazz performance program when I was doing my undergrad there many years ago, the guitar instructor told me that the best guitar player in the program was a graduate student who started in his thirties.
Do you know any particularly skilled player who is a late starter on any instrument? When I say particularly skilled I mean above average pro level.

*Tal Farlow - Wikipedia

[mr. beaumont]

Dutch Bopper (who posts here regularly) started as an adult, I beleive...at least started on jazz as an adult. That dude can play.

I think people who start as an adult and acheive ridiculously high levels are pretty rare though. It takes practice, so I really suppose it's dependent on how driven you are and where you're at in your life. 25, single, work from home? Hey, who knows? 28, married, with a 2 year old and a baby on the way? Well...

What's not as rare though, in jazz, is continuing to get better as you get older. Sure, you might lose your chops a little bit (but maybe not as much as you might think), but your ideas can get stronger and stronger. Jazz is by no means just a youngin's game, which I find very reassuring.

The first 20 years have definitely been the hardest. By the time I'm 60, who knows?

[[email protected]]

I started to seriously learn jazz at 55, I have had a love affair with the instrument since I was 8 and first picked one up , a Stella with a cowboy painted on the top. I messed around through my teens , played some in a country rock band in my 20's and started building guitars and mandolins in my thirty's, I loved music but knew at that time , or thought that I would never be a player.I did learn to read-barely- for mandolin and played some bluegrass,In my early 50's a man moved to my town who was an all around guitar player and music school grad . he offered to teach me if I wanted to ., and that was the beginning. he was the perfect teacher for me , we started with tunes learned the melody the chords and a simple chord melody. when we came to a place that needed more we added some scales arps etc but it was always tunes. it was so much fun I found some guys and started playing together. we stayed together for 10 years and I kept learning. when that ended I found some more people and did it again I am now 75 and still learning and having fun and also building guitars again LEARN TUNES

[ronjazz]

Tal Farlow proved that HE could become a virtuosos.

[Tal_175]

Tal Farlow proved that HE could become a virtuosos.

True Tal Farlow's achievements cannot be generalized. But it would refute a generalized claim that says one must start very early to become a virtuoso player which is a common belief.
Of course starting early isn't an automatic admission to the world of players like Tal Farlow. It'd still be a rare occurrence.

[pcsanwald]

Do you know any particularly skilled player who is a late starter on any instrument? When I say particularly skilled I mean above average pro level.

Another way to think about this is, how many jazz musicians were very good at a relatively young age? Quite a few musicians were playing jazz at the highest levels in their early 20s, in many cases, these musicians also didn't start at an extremely young age. I was at the New School during a particularly interesting period, classmates were Robert Glasper, Mike Moreno, Mike Rodriguez, etc. All these folks played very, very well straight out of high school, and my perception is largely that they had gotten to that point in about 4-ish years (i.e. they weren't playing jazz as little kids or something).

I switched to upright bass in my late 30s (6 years ago) and most people (including several well known jazz musicians I've been lucky to play with) think I've been playing my whole life. I don't have kids, and, other than day job, devote most of my waking hours to music. No one would ever call me a virtuoso on bass, but, I do certainly play at a professional level. I mention this not because I want recognition, but rather because I think it somewhat dispelled the myth to me that you have to start early on an instrument. I started extremely late on upright, but I have good technique, excellent intonation, and have leveled up my reading skills significantly, all things that I would have previously thought required starting young.

I think it's common for musicians to want to look for examples of people like them who have excelled and achieved some success, I certainly did this a lot in my 20s whilst wishing I didn't need to have a day job. But in the end, anything is possible, and what matters most is that you're putting in the work that makes you feel good.

[Tal_175]

Guitar players generally start very late by the standards of classical players. Steel string guitar is just not a suitable instrument for a small kid.
Earliest usually is when one is a teenager. Even then it's not a serious formal study. Teen guitar players' education typically consists of learning cowboy chords, some rock riffs, rock ballad intros and half baked attempts at Slash solos.

In the violin world if you're not formally studying very seriously by the age of 8-9, forget being a pro. May be an orchestral player but not a soloist.
When a guitar player starts very early (like 5-6) and studies formally that's usually classical guitar, then they may have chops like Pasquale Grasso. Violin world counter part of that level of chops I bet is easily met by an average student at a good conservatory. But in the guitar world, that level amounts to being a guitar God. Because guitarists start late and often don't get into a disciplined pedagogy until much later. Which I'm very happy about

[Tal_175]

On the other hand guitar is an easier instrument than violin probably. Also musical styles outside of the classical world isn't as unforgiving about nuances in tone, articulation and consistency. I know classical players who are horrified by the instrumental standards of even some of the jazz legends.

[mr. beaumont]

...All these folks played very, very well straight out of high school, and my perception is largely that they had gotten to that point in about 4-ish years (i.e. they weren't playing jazz as little kids or something).

I think that age, high school into college, are when many of us are at our "spongiest." We're still young and have little responsibility, but we're old enough to understand stuff including abstract concepts.

I often wonder what my ability would be if I hadn't squandered these years smoking pot and playing lousy rock music. Ah, hindsight...

[dickbanks]

Not as an adult entirely, but I often marvel at what Jimi Hendrix accomplished in 12 years--he first picked up a real guitar (not a broom or a 1-string ukulele) at 15, and he was dead at 27.

[TommyBrooklyn]

I believe we were separated at birth, Mr. Beaumont.

[sgcim]

According to his Wikipedia page "He taught himself how to play guitar, which he started when he was twenty-two years old."*
Now following that sentence there is statement about him learning chord melodies on a mandolin. So may be he started playing mandolin at a younger age. Not sure. If so, that means the title of the thread isn't true.

I also got my first guitar in the first half of my twenties. Coincidentally, I also started on a mandolin at the age of 7. But I didn't play very seriously. Similarities end there
My goals have never been to become a virtuoso player, but I find the subject interesting. When I was taking (elective) courses from a university jazz performance program when I was doing my undergrad there many years ago, the guitar instructor told me that the best guitar player in the program was a graduate student who started in his thirties.
Do you know any particularly skilled player who is a late starter on any instrument? When I say particularly skilled I mean above average pro level.

*Tal Farlow - Wikipedia

Wikipedia is a terrible source for pre Beatles music. I bought the Guy-Littler Jones privately printed Tal bio, and he is meticulous in his research.
Tal's father had a strong interest in electronics and music, and played the guitar, banjo, violin and ukulele, as well as the clarinet.
His mother played the piano and organ, and his sister Charlotte also played both and had perfect pitch.
Tal's father taught him the mandolin when Tal was only EIGHT years old, and he used the same tuning as the top four strings of the guitar-DGBE.
Tal became quite adept on this instrument, and taught himself to play chord melodies of the popular songs of the time, by Gershwin, Kern and Porter. Tal became able to play in several different keys at different positions on the fingerboard.
A few years later, he moved to the six string guitar, and used his LH thumb to play bass notes for the chords, while still using his mandolin fingerings to play the other voices in the chords.
Tal listened to the radio a lot, and was influenced by guitarists like Eddie land Dick McDonough, and Carl Kress, when he was aged ten to fifteen.
After he heard Charlie Christian at age 19, he started to become a pro.

The same was true with Wes Montgomery. He started playing a four string ax, and switched to six strings when he was older. I don't have to go into his musical family...

[Zina]

... Steel string guitar is just not a suitable instrument for a small kid ...

And why is that, Sir; pray tell?

[Tal_175]

And why is that, Sir; pray tell?

Physical strength is required to get clean sounds from steel strings in addition to the difficulties with reach given small hands, nut width and scale length. Also there are difficulties with comfortably holding acoustic guitars with good posture given their sizes. Even 3/4 sized guitars can be a challenge for many small kids (3-6 year olds).
That doesn't mean it can't be done. But practice time and patience required to learn an instrument is already a big challenge for highly kinesthetic and short attention span beings. Guitar puts additional physical challenges compared to many other choices like violin or keyboard.

[Flat]

Next time around...

[Zina]

Physical strength required to get clean sounds from steel strings. Reach difficulties with small hands given the nut width and scale length. Difficulties with comfortably holding acoustic guitars with good posture given their sizes. Even 3/4 sized guitars can be a challenge for many small kids (3-6 year olds).
That doesn't mean it can't be done. But practice time and patience required to learn an instrument is already a big challenge for highly kinestetic and short attention span beings. Guitar puts additional physical challenges compared to many other choices like violin or keyboard.

I would gladly comment on these condescending, rather insulting clichés, but my short attention span sent me running (I'm highly "kinestetic", see?) to the pink sparkle nailpolish emporium instead.

[Jonah]

Physical strength required to get clean sounds from steel strings. Reach difficulties with small hands given the nut width and scale length. Difficulties with comfortably holding acoustic guitars with good posture given their sizes. Even 3/4 sized guitars can be a challenge for many small kids (3-6 year olds).
That doesn't mean it can't be done. But practice time and patience required to learn an instrument is already a big challenge for highly kinestetic and short attention span beings. Guitar puts additional physical challenges compared to many other choices like violin or keyboard.

I have a few guitars, two lutes, two ukes, a bunch or early transverse flutes and recorders, and a chromatic harmonica.. and piano of course...

I play all of it at different level of course... guitars and lutes are main instruments of course.

My son of 6 years - I am very curious how it wil go with him... (I hve two daughters but he seems to be the most interested in music now at least) at the moment he can play a few tunes on solprano recorder... also he can play a bunch of chords on uke and play some songs...
He get interested quickly but switches quickly too...
I do not push him and allow to choose...
but he definitely has very goood ear and very good hands, he grabs uke as if it was always in his hands. He immidiately makes correct hand position and has good tone when fingerpicks...
I am sure he will play just do not know to how far he will go with it.

He picks steel string guitar too.. though it hurts he comes over it quite quickly.... and likes the tone of it.

It all depends on a kid... again I do not push my kids at all... let them try and choose...

I myself had no-one playing in the family - and insisted on byuing me guitar when I was about 9 and later asked to bring piano from our relatives who did not use it..
you never know how it works.

[Sui11]

Dear sgcim,

Sorry to bother you. I'm a fan of Tal farlow who have recently searching for his interviews to read. I found an uncertain thing about Tal's age. The wikipedia and all the sources that I got show that Tal was born in 1921, but in an interview from Downbeat which was made in 1979, Tal said he was 22 in 1940 when he firstly heard Charlie Christian and then start to play seriously, which means he was born in 1918 according to his saying. In another interview made by the magazine B.M.G in 1959, the interviewer wrote that he was born in 1921 and heard Charlie's playing when he was 22.

Here seems to be a contradictrion. I think most articles about Tal on the internet maybe inaccurate, so I tried to find all the interviews in paper which were made decades ago that I could get, but there still seems to be something wrong, either his birthday or the time when he start to play. I couldn't find more resource to check the fact.

I saw that you posted a reply that you got the biography written by guy littler jones, which is a detailed biography about Tal's life as far as I know. It's difficult to find a copy of it from where I live, so I'm just wondering would you be willing to help to check the details about Tal's birthday and the accurate time when he first heard Charlie and start to play seriously, if it's mentioned in the book? (You wrote in your reply saying that Tal first heard Charlie when he was 19 written in this book, if so, some of the resources mentioned above must be wrong.)

I'd really appreciate it if you could help me, thanks!

[PMB]

The biographies by Guy Littler-Jones and Jean-Luc Katchoura (in collaboration with Tal's second wife, Michele Hyk-Farlow) give June 7, 1921 as his birthdate.

[Strat-itis]

Bro, adults in their 20s or even later do NOT learn worse than teenagers, that's absurd dismissal of adults' capabilities. The only advantage young learners have over adults besides starting earlier is when they literally start at age 3 or 5 and their brains are wired to code in learning directly and they learn music in the fashion of a primary language where it's completely intuitive. But adults in their 20s or 30s can learn extremely effectively apart from that BECAUSE YOU'RE SMARTER. Or not lol.

[Cunamara]

A motivated adult will learn better and faster than a disinterested 10-year-old. It is not purely a matter of age. When I was in fourth grade I wanted to learn guitar. The public school music program had band instruments and orchestral instruments that one could take lessons in; I got a cello handed to me because it was about the same size and they thought that would work. Unfortunately, it didn't and poor Mr. Teufel was stuck with me as a disinterested student for a couple of years. My parents finally let me give it up*. When I was 18 I took my first set of guitar lessons from a teacher who was not simpatico with me; at 20, I tried it again and found a teacher who was very well able to connect with me and suckered me into playing jazz. Plus he had an early 40s L-7 that was cool as all get-out. I learned much faster and better than I did at age 10.

That being said, the motivated child will learn better and faster than the motivated adult because of having greater neural plasticity at that age. After adolescence, our ability to acquire new knowledge is not as automatic; we compensate for that by improving our critical thinking abilities, use of crystallized intelligence and memory, and strategic learning. We are probably better at learning specialized knowledge in depth as adults than we were as children. The remodeling of our brain that occurs in adolescence is part of what makes those years so awful for most of us (I can't even imagine going through high school in the age of social media, it was bad enough in the 1970s) and changes how we learn.

* I really regret this, in retrospect. The cello is such a moving and beautiful instrument and I am sad that I was too non-engaged to recognize that in grade school. I suppose it's never too late to pick it up again, even at 65, but I am so busy with guitar these days that I'm not sure when I would fit in time to study cello. Mr. Teufel did impart general principles of musicianship, however, that have stuck with me and I am very grateful to him for that.

Later in life, Jimmy Raney (already a virtuoso on jazz guitar) took up the cello and studied it very seriously. Ron Carter started on cello, switched to bass and later in life has gone back to also playing cello. If I remember correctly, Oscar Pettiford played cello and even recorded jazz on it. Forum member Mark Kleinhaut posts free improvisation duets with a cellist every so often. Chico Hamilton had a cellist his small group. So had I stuck with cello, I might've still ended up in jazz!

[sgosnell]

ISTM that someone who has little interest in music as a child may have little interest as an adult. Someone who starts learning an instrument as an adult may not have the drive to put in the practice required to reach professional level. Not necessarily, but perhaps. This could account for the relative rarity of high-level musicians who started as adults, at least in part. It may not be that it's impossible, more that the drive isn't present. One does not generally reach a high level on any instrument without heavy practice. The occasional child prodigy aside, most young children are not amenable to hours of daily practice, and the vast majority never play an instrument at all. Given the tiny percentage of humans who ever play at all, and out of those the tiny percentage who ever advance to even marginal professional level, I'm not sure it's possible to say whether an adult can become a virtuoso, because there aren't enough adults who are even willing to try.

[Strat-itis]

The motivated child will learn better and faster than the motivated adult because of having greater neural plasticity at that age. After adolescence, our ability to acquire new knowledge is not as automatic.

Breh, a 22 year old is not disadvantaged at learning compared to an 8-12 year old, that's absurd. Young children age 3-6 who are just learning their primary language do have more neuroplasticity and have an intuitive advantage if they pick up music then in an immersive way. But 20 somethings aren't poorer learners than kids who've already formed their language ability and identity. Adults get BETTER at learning, they just don't have as much of the immersive learning ability that small children have age 3-6. You're saying a 12 year old would do better in med school than a 22 year old?!

[RLetson]

My understanding of neuroplasticity comes from language-acquisition research, which is probably a bit narrow, but there does seem to be a sweet spot for gaining what used to be called a native-language level of competence. On the other hand, a friend who ran a Montessori school thought that that kind of learning capacity can be extended beyond the language-acquisition stage.

My strong suspicion is that skills acquisition is conditioned more by what we can sloppily call "talent"--which is to say, uneven distribution of innate capacities and cognitive biases. So it's possible that if I'd had conventional piano lessons early on, in that language-acquisition window, I would have at least a minimal grasp of standard notation--though I suspect that I would still not be a good enough sight-reader to play in a school orchestra.

Just as I am pretty sure that I lack what's called "number sense," which means that I acquired mathematical skills and understandings slowly and rather mechanically via what I now recognize as algorithmic protocols. Algebra manageable; calculus and trig not; visual-friendly courses like Euclidian and analytical geometry pretty good. There's a pattern forming there. (And I'm pretty good at patterns.)

The OP asks about virtuosity, but I'll settle for competence, with the qualification that required levels of competence can vary a great deal, according to what role one is aspiring to. I came to serious guitar playing in my mid-teens and got as far as I did by dint of relentless repetition (and tablature arrangements) of folk-fingerstyle pieces. Then, the year I turned 50, I was tempted out to play in public, and I had to extend my skill set considerably in order to play along with a couple of big-ear'd friends. Thirty years later, I'm a pretty competent swing rhythm player and general accompanist, able to follow a Real Book chart, though still without being able to read the notes. I do not (and probably never will) have the technical skill to single-string solo on guitar, even though my musical imagination permits me to improvise vocally--not scatting, just rhythmic/phrasing freedom. But if I had another decade or two to work on it, I could probably manage to take a not-too-embarrassing eight-bar break on a non-bop tune.

[jazznylon]

Starting from almost zero guitar experience at 18-19 years old I had a classical guitar teacher who guided me the way to play virtuosic pieces like asturias in just 2-3 years. I practiced like crazy to get to that point though...