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  1. #26

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    I've found that working on Tim's ideas on the nylon-string guitar really improves the technique overall.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Jens has a ton of great lessons on youtube. I just subscribed to his channel.

    I don't see the point of TM talking about sustain when he's using OD...

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Jens has a ton of great lessons on youtube. I just subscribed to his channel.

    I don't see the point of TM talking about sustain when he's using OD...
    Thank you!

    Jens

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Didn't he play a strat for a bit back in the late 70s?
    Yes. An acoustic too.



    Last edited by Fidelcaster; 12-06-2016 at 06:59 PM.

  6. #30

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    And another approach :

    Last edited by Robertkoa; 02-02-2018 at 10:01 AM.

  7. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    And another approach :

    You mean : just buy more "legato " effects? :-)

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    You mean : just buy more "legato " effects? :-)

    Yes .And use a very light picking (non ) attack.




    But definitely not taking anything away from Rosenwinkel - he could do it all on an Acoustic Guitar with no effects and still be a brilliant, creative Musician/ Guitarist.

    A lot of what he does with his 'attack remover pedal ' - I do with pick control...







    I can see why many people on this Forum like him so much....he's very free of Guitar Clichès so it's kind of mind expanding to listen to him as well as nice sounding and feeling.

    So the idea that you can be Legato without the Holdsworth Gain too...and that sure ..if you can get an effect that will do that for you and spend more time writing, playing , recording etc. why not ?

    It's possible to do legato with very shallow picking and the pickups far from the strings ...delay and reverb really help also you can probably hear similarities from Holdsworth's Tone and Gilmour, and Eric Johnson and Tim Miller ...EJ picks a lot of notes and still sounds ' legato' when he wants.
    I like Tim Miller's stuff that I have heard ....

    I imagine both Holdsworth and EJ and other Rockers pioneered that stuff long ago.

    EXACT perfect Definition of ' legato ' -
    Don't know ...haha.

    But I take a broader view ..

    Here's an example of something that inspired me to woodshed for a long long time to get very close to.. or maybe beyond in some ways ...it's not the speed ( that's relatively easy ) - it's the effortlessness of the phrases being ghost notes but clearly and softly articulated :

    It's Alto Sax - go to 2:10 seconds :

    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-13-2018 at 12:02 PM.

  9. #33
    I'm new here, but it seems interesting and I hope you don't mind my intervention. I think every technique should be second to the musical objective you have in that moment. So the melody you want to play, where you wanna go and the sound you want to achieve. Different techiniques or picking styles give out different sounds. So instead of focusing on exercises you find on the internet I would suggest you to work on real solos by players who are masters in the legato technique and pay a lot of attention in trying to reproduce the exact sound or vibe of the phrasing. Try different fingerings, but always focusing on the sound and on reproducing the melody. I found this works at least with me more than just play a bunch of scales using hammer on and pull offs. Cheers


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  10. #34
    I can send you a couple of mike Moreno's solos I transcribed if you're interested. Notation and tab, if can be of any help, it was a good study for me.


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  11. #35

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    [QUOTE=TOMMO;717398]Can we please define "legato" here - I'm a bit puzzled because I've learned two definitions (regarding playing guitar):


    Good Point .

    What many or MOST Electric Guitarists think of as
    "Legato" is a whole set of *Techniques and
    usually EFX ( Delay , Compression or Tube Amp Compression or Modeling Tube Clipping , and other Electronic Enhancement...)

    Another example - you can enhance this further with pickups far down from strings
    pick lightly not much gain needed...delay etc.
    Listen to the Intro- it's about 90% of the way to Legato already.

    Not Rocket Science Technique - beautiful creative Art - yes- innovative in 60's yes.

    Don't let the ' Internet' lead you into an exhaustive long Road to this unless you WANT a long Road is my point .





    And the Techniques that Electric Players and Classical , Flamenco Players have used to minimize the Attack at the beginning of the Notes.

    And previously Composers/Conductors obviously notate this on Music Scores.

    So a Violin naturally with Bowing tends to be more ' legato ' ( smooth flowing less attack - more like one continuous Note but changing Pitch ).

    But even Violins have a range of Legato / Staccato with Bowing Techniques-
    BUT to attack like a Guitar - String Players use Pizzicato plucking the Strings.

    So Guitar regarding Legato/ Staccato is kind of opposite of Violin- we Guitarists are Naturally Staccato and need to lighten the attack by slurring, hammering, tapping, sliding up to next note ( or down ) on same string for 'legato.'

    Also - on Electric Guitar and using some modern pick materials ( like Gator Grip Tortex, and Delrin etc. not necessarily light gauge) just picking really softly can get close to 'legato' with very smooth attack.

    Another more narrow 'Definition ' of Legato is the Style in the Tim Miller Video ( very good )
    which is a complete Guitar ' Style' with tone and EFX ...
    Some Guitarists lean very strongly toward
    specializing in' Legato' .

    Allan Holdsworth etc.

    Some can go both ways ..
    Jon Kriesburg -a good example of nearly Legato with just smooth light picking sometimes ( picking dynamics).

    Eric Johnson -

    Eddie Van Halen - uses a lot of Legato Techniques but has a crisp picking attack when he wants it .
    Even Pat Metheny was a big fan of EVH and used to see him live.

    MY particular version of ' legato' is picking so softly that it sounds almost like tapping or hammering or ghost notes on an Alto Sax ...I really go to a barely touching the strings depth - the pick touches the strings but rarely breaks the plane below them when you look down .....
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 03-21-2018 at 04:30 PM.

  12. #36

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    I honestly believe that the history of jazz guitar can be understood as a gradual shift towards lighter picking and more legato.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I honestly believe that the history of jazz guitar can be understood as a gradual shift towards lighter picking and more legato.
    You know much more about the Players but yes ...I can see that...the younger Guys in their 30's and 40's
    are generally lighter ...more fluid and free and generally more technically advanced although there are exceptions.

    Johnny Smith was very modern for his time and very advanced technically and harmonically ..he could sound like a Classic Jazzer or a l more toward fluid legato playing.
    Must have really freaked out other Guitarists back then.



    I heard Mike Moreno mentioned and checked him out and really like his fingerstyle playing and Writing he has good picking Articulation too - but generally they are going slightly more Legato ...these younger Jazzmasters...just as you say.Kind of Alto Sax Influence and maybe Metheny influence too ?
    When they Compose they mix it up a lot more too - bad for me ...lol.

    When you Fingerstyle Rhythmically over Extended Voicings...I do that a lot...I don't think it's Jazz or care
    but some Jazz Guys are doing it now too like Moreno .

    Peter Bernstein picks more old school with firm Attack kind of like a crisper Martino -and I was surprised to hear him playing on one Vid with a really nice subtle but singing Vibrato...for another example. I thought it sounded great too .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-12-2018 at 05:53 PM.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    You know much more about the Players but yes ...I can see that...the younger Guys in their 30's and 40's
    are generally lighter ...more fluid and free and generally more technically advanced although there are exceptions.



    I heard Mike Moreno mentioned and checked him out and really like his fingerstyle playing and Writing he has good picking Articulation too - but generally they are going slightly more Legato ...these younger Jazzmasters...just as you say.Kind of Alto Sax Influence and maybe Metheny influence too ?
    When they Compose they mix it up a lot more too - bad for me ...lol.

    When you Fingerstyle Rhythmically over Extended Voicings...I do that a lot...I don't think it's Jazz or care
    but some Jazz Guys are doing it now too like Moreno .

    Peter Bernstein picks more old school with firm Attack kind of like a crisper Martino -and I was surprised to hear him playing on one Vid with a really nice subtle but singing Vibrato...for another example. I thought it sounded great too .
    I'm going back further, the past 100 years or so. Advances in technology.

  15. #39

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    I was thinking of technical advances ...

    We are 40 years beyond the Fusion Guys ..30 years beyond the 80s Rockers and Shredders and what most call ' Legato' Style ( perhaps erroneously ) has evolved from that and the younger Jazzers are embracing some of that calming it down somewhat and taking it to new places.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-12-2018 at 05:56 PM.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    I was thinking of technical advances ...

    We are 40 years beyond the Fusion Guys ..30 years beyond the 80s Rockers and Shredders and what most call ' Legato' Style ( perhaps erroneously ) has evolved from that and the younger Jazzers are embracing some of that calming it down somewhat and taking it to new places.
    The younger players grew up with that music. I am one of them although I was always more SRV than SV, if you get me.

    These modern guys are players incapable of really getting their sound without amplification really, they are pure electric players. The amp sound is an integral part of what they do and they grew up practicing plugged in on cheap but playable electrics through practice amps rather than on nasty action Kay acoustics or whatever. Kurt will spend an hour fiddling with his amp until it is set just right to respond to his touch.

    OTOH Joe Pass had an acoustic jazz guitarist's right hand, as does Benson and all they needed was something clean and reliable to make them louder. They are coming out of Django as much as Charlie Christian IMO. And CC could project on an acoustic as recordings show.

    Wes and Jim Hall were an early pointer in the legato direction, as was Jimmy Raney to some extent. More legato, more hornlike, less pick attack. Metheny went a notch further.

    Think of the difference between singers - Bing to Sinatra, Sinatra to say, Mark Murphy? Microphones and better PAs, also mike technique.

    The earliest players had no amplification at all of course. That Django was able to get as much legato as he did was as much a testament to the way his instruments were built as the way he played them, but archtops in contrast were designed for almost anti legato. Eddie Lang could make his L5 sing of course, but it is in no way a legato sound.

    Anyway I think there are some problems applying legato technique or even just a very even aesthetic to jazz and keeping the nuance in there. Moreno has addressed this best of the young guys IMO, a very nice balance, a step back from Kurt.

    Kurt has taken this as his aesthetic out of choice. YMMV. So we have entered the era of the super even eighth note jazz guitar solo. Phrasing can lack detail if all your notes are equal. Kurt makes it work for him of course, but it's worth being aware that aesthetic decisions are being made.

    Maybe some younger cat is going to come and buck the trend probably and then everyone will play like them in 10 years.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-15-2017 at 11:10 PM.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I honestly believe that the history of jazz guitar can be understood as a gradual shift towards lighter picking and more legato.
    This may be part of the reason Charlie Christian still sounds so fresh, vital, and swinging...

  18. #42

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    Obviously, Tom Quayle is one of the masters at Legato.


  19. #43

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    Check out how Abel Carlevaro suggests training it. Dunno if it was was his own invention but who cares. Probably overkill for soloing on electric guitar but still helpful.
    It's way too complicated for me to explain it with only words and I can't really find a good link that quickly, but I'm sure there is some material floating about.



    Next, what has helped me to get them legatos be more convincing, here's an idea of exercise.
    Take your passage that contains some slurs (whatever direction). Would be nice if it is moderately speedy.
    Turn on the metronome - no way around it.
    Play only 3 first notes, get them really accurate. Accent on the last note ! ! ! <----- thats the most important part.
    When you get it well and effortless, add the next note... (with accent on last - no matter if its a slurred note or not )
    ..and then another.. and another..

    If it tends to be too much, split the passage somewhere.

    To not waste much time, leave only a beat or two before repeating those little chunks.

  20. #44

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    I wonder how most of these modern, wimpy stringed, feather picking, girly action, pussy FX players sound when you give them a real Jazz box with tight, heavy strings, action like telegraph wires and NO distortion / compression / FX? Name one modern Jazz guitar player that is dynamic and exciting in the way of CC, DR, WM or GB? Sure you'll name some, but I won't agree with you! The aforementioned all employed a clear and dynamic legato when they wished to, and generally played with more muscularity (they probably all grew up playing on Freddie Green's guitar! )
    Interestingly, modern players on other instruments haven't suffered dynamically the way modern guitar players have (ok, maybe "synth" players... ).

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    I wonder how most of these modern, wimpy stringed, feather picking, girly action, pussy FX players sound when you give them a real Jazz box with tight, heavy strings, action like telegraph wires and NO distortion / compression / FX? Name one modern Jazz guitar player that is dynamic and exciting in the way of CC, DR, WM or GB? Sure you'll name some, but I won't agree with you! The aforementioned all employed a clear and dynamic legato when they wished to, and generally played with more muscularity (they probably all grew up playing on Freddie Green's guitar! )
    Interestingly, modern players on other instruments haven't suffered dynamically the way modern guitar players have (ok, maybe "synth" players... ).
    Rosenwinkel, Heskelman, Kreisbeirg? I don't think FX made playing easy for them. I would be bored in a world where every guitarist play on a dry es175.

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  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    I wonder how most of these modern, wimpy stringed, feather picking, girly action, pussy FX players sound when you give them a real Jazz box with tight, heavy strings, action like telegraph wires and NO distortion / compression / FX? Name one modern Jazz guitar player that is dynamic and exciting in the way of CC, DR, WM or GB?
    Julian Lage

  23. #47

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    I do think many modern players make relatively little use of dynamic contrast. Everything can sound a bit compressed even if they aren’t using actual compression... this isn’t just a technical thing. I think Adam Rogers picks every note and he sounds incredibly even in a straight ahead setting.

    I prefer to think on it as an aesthetic choice rather than view it in a value judgement sort of way.

    But yes. I like it when players dig in. Lage (Julian) really plays dynamics. He’ll go from whisper to roar without touching the volume control. I think playing that prewar L5 through a mic taught him a lot about touch maybe?

    and maybe that’s the difference - the players who have a real acoustic thing, and the very electric players.

    There is a price paid for super hornlike, flowing legato and the trade off is dynamic contrast, accentuation within the lines; Holdsworth paid it as well, and he was one of the ten or fewer real world changing geniuses jazz guitar has produced IMO.

    So I don’t want to make a value judgement, but be aware of the sacrifices and compromises you are making. And there’s shades of grey between Holdsworth and Pat Martino... but there’s trade offs all the way.

    I find this video useful to contrast the schools... I know what I find intuitively more compelling, but I don’t imagine everyone shares my opinion. But it’s better to express that intuition in your music making, no? And they seem to dig each other:


  24. #48

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    I learned legato with Joe Satriani tunes 25 years ago and today it's one of the few aspects of my playing I feel confortable with. The technique is the same in rock and jazz with a bit less chromatisms. I think that playing major scales exercises with distorsion in a legato heavy metal / shred way (I know, what a curse right?) is a good practice. In the meantime you don't bother with jazz vocabulary and focus only on technique.

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  25. #49

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    Often very able legato players develop this because they aren’t comfortable doing it with picking... this is true of Allan. Tom Quayle says this too.

    I think necessity is overlooked. Now everyone tries to learn everything. And you end up not really doing anything... it’s good to go with your thing.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Mal
    I've been trying to develop my legato technique for about six months using various lessons from the internet. I feel like I'm not improving. Surely I need to practice more and have more patience, but in your experience what exercises and lessons worked for you when learning and developing your legato technique?
    There are great legato excercises that I was taught on lute (by Xavier Diaz-Lattorre (orginally they are from Pujol books I believe) - they are really much about not only legato but general physiology. They not only improve legato but make the hand very stable.. but it depends much on your hand position and technique.

    probably not what you need