Practice guitar with an amp - or not?

[Longways to Go]

the past few months, I had been practicing 99% acoustic -- both archtop & flat-top.
I enjoy the sound and the feel and I believe the all acoustic approach has helped me build hand strength.

But I realized a couple of weeks ago that I had lost touch with my electric sound. So now I'm splitting time a little more evenly between amplified & non-amplified. Much softer touch with amp -- also lots of different little nuances.

[Bobalou]

Mostly practice the way you plan on playing at gigs. Why? Because it's all one system with different parts like a team. The electric guitar is designed to be amplified. That means all the beautiful tone you can get is dependent on the entire system that's designed to work together. The guitar itself gets the initial sound dialed up then the pickups are designed to bring that signal up to instrument level and begins adding the PLEASING tone shaping to the signal. Then AMPS are designed to amplify the PLEASING frequencies and attenuate any potentially unpleasant ones. Thus adding another major layer of tone shaping by emphasizing PLEASING frequencies . This before the speaker adds the final layer of pleasing tone shaping, before the waves goboff into the air, in a similar manner to above. And over these many generations of design all the components have gotten damn good at their perspective jobs.

Sure we all prolly sometimes just pick up the guitar by itself, sit on the couch and noodle scales/arpeggios etc while watching our fave sitcom. But ultimately if you plan on gigging you should practice the way you'll sound at gigs. Become very familiar with that. Yes even dialing in the different effects you plan on using at various times. And even practicing the ways you play with different effects. That stuff ALL needs to be rehearsed. For example (its not jazz but makes the point) The edge of U2, that echo effect he uses alot. That causes him to play a certain way that perhaps playing that way without the effect wouldn't sound nearly as good. So yea he had to get good at playing against those echo effects he uses so well. Like if he didn't have the Deluxe Memory Man or never turned it on/ just practiced with his guitar only. He might never have been futzing around with his delay and discovered those cool triplet and dotted eighth note things he made famous/that made him famous.

Yes you need to practice with your whole rig even if you need a headphone version for apartment living etc. But still the whole rig just like the whole sports team practices together, not just the quarterback, defensive end, and receivers. The whole system /team has to practise how to do it TOGETHER.

[Bobalou]

Mostly practice the way you plan on playing at gigs. Why? Because it's all one system with different parts like a team. The electric guitar is designed to be amplified. That means all the beautiful tone you can get is dependent on the entire system that's designed to work together. The guitar itself gets the initial sound dialed up then the pickups are designed to bring that signal up to instrument level and begins adding the PLEASING tone shaping to the signal. Then AMPS are designed to amplify the PLEASING frequencies and attenuate any potentially unpleasant ones. Thus adding another major layer of tone shaping by emphasizing PLEASING frequencies . This before the speaker adds the final layer of pleasing tone shaping, before the waves go off into the air, in a similar manner to above. And over these many generations of design all the components have gotten damn good at their perspective jobs.

Sure we all prolly sometimes just pick up the guitar by itself, sit on the couch and noodle scales/arpeggios etc while watching our fave sitcom. But ultimately if you plan on gigging you should practice the way you'll sound at gigs. Become very familiar with that. Yes even dialing in the different effects you plan on using at various times. And even practicing the ways you play with different effects. That stuff ALL needs to be rehearsed. For example (its not jazz but makes the point) The edge of U2, that echo effect he uses alot. That causes him to play a certain way that perhaps playing that way without the effect wouldn't sound nearly as good. So yea he had to get good at playing against those echo effects he uses so well. Like if he didn't have the Deluxe Memory Man or never turned it on/ just practiced with his guitar only. He might never have been futzing around with his delay and discovered those cool triplet and dotted eighth note things he made famous/that made him famous.

Yes you need to practice with your whole rig even if you need a headphone version for apartment living etc. But still the whole rig just like the whole sports team practices together, not just the quarterback, defensive end, and receivers. The whole system /team has to practise how to do it TOGETHER.

[princeplanet]

Mostly practice the way you plan on playing at gigs. Why? Because it's all one system with different parts like a team. The electric guitar is designed to be amplified. That means all the beautiful tone you can get is dependent on the entire system that's designed to work together. The guitar itself gets the initial sound dialed up then the pickups are designed to bring that signal up to instrument level and begins adding the PLEASING tone shaping to the signal. Then AMPS are designed to amplify the PLEASING frequencies and attenuate any potentially unpleasant ones. Thus adding another major layer of tone shaping by emphasizing PLEASING frequencies . This before the speaker adds the final layer of pleasing tone shaping, before the waves go off into the air, in a similar manner to above. And over these many generations of design all the components have gotten damn good at their perspective jobs.

Sure we all prolly sometimes just pick up the guitar by itself, sit on the couch and noodle scales/arpeggios etc while watching our fave sitcom. But ultimately if you plan on gigging you should practice the way you'll sound at gigs. Become very familiar with that. Yes even dialing in the different effects you plan on using at various times. And even practicing the ways you play with different effects. That stuff ALL needs to be rehearsed. For example (its not jazz but makes the point) The edge of U2, that echo effect he uses alot. That causes him to play a certain way that perhaps playing that way without the effect wouldn't sound nearly as good. So yea he had to get good at playing against those echo effects he uses so well. Like if he didn't have the Deluxe Memory Man or never turned it on/ just practiced with his guitar only. He might never have been futzing around with his delay and discovered those cool triplet and dotted eighth note things he made famous/that made him famous.

Yes you need to practice with your whole rig even if you need a headphone version for apartment living etc. But still the whole rig just like the whole sports team practices together, not just the quarterback, defensive end, and receivers. The whole system /team has to practise how to do it TOGETHER.

Nah, if there's nothing wrong with a 50/50 split with respect to acoustic vs electric practice, then I say it's ok for some to push that out to 80/20 in favour of acoustic, for the reasons I stated earlier. You don't always have to practice the way you perform. Runners sometimes practice running up hill, on sand or in water. It's called resistance training and is excellent for working on specific rudiments, or weaknesses.

By FAR the biggest weakness in electric guitarists is dynamic projection. No-one sounds like CC or Django anymore because the amp projects their sound to the back of the room these days, not the pick hand. I bet you both those guys did more practice unamplified than not.

However, if you wanna rely on amps and FX the way The Edge does for his sound, then you probably aren't even reading this thread, or this forum for that matter!

[Bobalou]

Nah, if there's nothing wrong with a 50/50 split with respect to acoustic vs electric practice, then I say it's ok for some to push that out to 80/20 in favour of acoustic, for the reasons I stated earlier. You don't always have to practice the way you perform. Runners sometimes practice running up hill, on sand or in water. It's called resistance training and is excellent for working on specific rudiments, or weaknesses.

By FAR the biggest weakness in electric guitarists is dynamic projection. No-one sounds like CC or Django anymore because the amp projects their sound to the back of the room these days, not the pick hand. I bet you both those guys did more practice unamplified than not.

However, if you wanna rely on amps and FX the way The Edge does for his sound, then you probably aren't even reading this thread, or this forum for that matter!

I don't know who CC is and don't care. But in Djangos case I know he often was playing a full acoustic gypsy stile guitar. I was actually going to put something about acoustic guitar being possibly different but I figured that was self explanatory. I guess not for some? Anyway the pickups, the AMPS, the effects, the speakers all effect the tone. They are all part of the "musical team" and all become extensions of the players expressiveness. So YES they should all be practised TOGETHER MOST OF THE TIME. If you're not practising with an amp a lot of the time you're cheating yourself. That's how strongly I feel about it. A good amp will make your electric sound MUCH better than just its rather lacking straight acoustic sound. So why wouldn't you wanna hear that most of the time?

Edit: Oh CC for Charlie Christian. Well he used an amp so what's your point. Actually I believe Django frequently used the same model of amp that Charlie used .

[christianm77]

Nah, if there's nothing wrong with a 50/50 split with respect to acoustic vs electric practice, then I say it's ok for some to push that out to 80/20 in favour of acoustic, for the reasons I stated earlier. You don't always have to practice the way you perform. Runners sometimes practice running up hill, on sand or in water. It's called resistance training and is excellent for working on specific rudiments, or weaknesses.

By FAR the biggest weakness in electric guitarists is dynamic projection. No-one sounds like CC or Django anymore because the amp projects their sound to the back of the room these days, not the pick hand. I bet you both those guys did more practice unamplified than not.

However, if you wanna rely on amps and FX the way The Edge does for his sound, then you probably aren't even reading this thread, or this forum for that matter!

I'm not really into djangos electric sound. I am a pretty loud acoustic player and I tend to modify my approach. Therefore I like to play through an amp to practice that as a sound that works well through an amp is often a bit muted sounding unamplified.

But if you want to sound proper old school - do your rest stroke picking nice and hard...

[christianm77]

I don't know who CC is and don't care. But in Djangos case I know he often was playing a full acoustic gypsy stile guitar. I was actually going to put something about acoustic guitar being possibly different but I figured that was self explanatory. I guess not for some? Anyway the pickups, the AMPS, the effects, the speakers all effect the tone. They are all part of the "musical team" and all become extensions of the players expressiveness. So YES they should all be practised TOGETHER MOST OF THE TIME. If you're not practising with an amp a lot of the time you're cheating yourself. That's how strongly I feel about it. A good amp will make your electric sound MUCH better than just its rather lacking straight acoustic sound. So why wouldn't you wanna hear that most of the time?

Edit: Oh CC for Charlie Christian. Well he used an amp so what's your point. Actually I believe Django frequently used the same model of amp that Charlie used .

Haha I was about to demand you play 12 choruses of air mail special in penitence. But you got there first with your edit.

[christianm77]

I'll have to ask some singers how much they practice with and without a mic. Similar question?

I heard a while back Tony Bennett does one tune un miced to show the young whippersnappers what technique sounds like... Is this actually true?

[KirkP]

What works best for one person may not for another. For me it's rotating guitars, sometimes with and without amplification. I most enjoy it lightly amplified. I only practice at performance level if I'm practicing with a backing track or playing along with recordings.

Since tone is greatly affected by volume level, to follow Babalou's advice rigidly I'd need to practice at performance volume all the time. I wouldn't enjoy that, and my wife certainly wouldn't. ;-)

[princeplanet]

Edit: Oh CC for Charlie Christian. Well he used an amp so what's your point. Actually I believe Django frequently used the same model of amp that Charlie used .

The point is that both those players practiced mostly (in their formative years) without amps. That's how they got to be so exciting and dynamic, so much so that they are pretty much the reason you and I are playing the instrument today. Their playing continues to inspire, yet outside of acoustic based GJ, most modern electric Jazz guitarists pick very lightly. I've often felt that is the reason the instrument is "boring" to most listeners (excepting other jazz guitarists ).

The amp is the conduit for the guitar's "voice", it's not the voice itself. I set up an amp's sound to complement my expressive dynamics, not to compress it, or even suppress it. So I only need to practice with it 20% of the time. The resultant sound I have through an amp is not worse for it, it is actually improved. Any less than 20% and I know I'd sound messy, more than 20% and I start to get too light and, well, boring....

[David B]

I always practice through an amp these days:
1. In my limited live playing experience, I found the experience of playing the instrument transformed by (a) performance volumes; (b) the instrument sound coming at me from an amp rather than up from the instrument. My touch was way off the mark for amplified, performance-volume playing.
2. The two guitarists I have spent the most time with in learning situations, Sheryl Bailey and Jonathan Kreisberg, both advocate practising through an amp. Both were able to quickly identify students who were used to playing unplugged, usually because their pick attack was so heavy. Your practice sound should be as close your performance sound as possible - if you perform with an amp and effects, you should be using them in practice.

[princeplanet]

I always practice through an amp these days:
1. In my limited live playing experience, I found the experience of playing the instrument transformed by (a) performance volumes; (b) the instrument sound coming at me from an amp rather than up from the instrument. My touch was way off the mark for amplified, performance-volume playing.
2. The two guitarists I have spent the most time with in learning situations, Sheryl Bailey and Jonathan Kreisberg, both advocate practising through an amp. Both were able to quickly identify students who were used to playing unplugged, usually because their pick attack was so heavy. Your practice sound should be as close your performance sound as possible - if you perform with an amp and effects, you should be using them in practice.

Yup, everyone says the same thing, and they all sound the same, light plinkety plink... It's the fashionable sound.... I like me some snap! But you gotta totally rethink the amp's sound, starting with the pickups themselves...

[mrcee]

It's maybe not as important for a straight jazz player to practice with an amp as for a rock player where the majority of their tone is coming from the amp and FX. If all you're playing is pentatonic lines and bending strings you're basically just playing the amp. imo

[Bobalou]

This is my last post on this. I'm not feeding the trolls around here anymore.

YOU SHOULD PRACTICE WITH AN AMP A LOT OF THE TIME. PERIOD!!!!

Dynamics??? You have wayyyyy more Dynamics through amp. The volume is louder and more robust so you can get much more different nuances by varying your pick attack. I love using that technique. Varying the pick attack within lines to emphasise certain notes and have other notes less loud as flavor. Those kinds of things should be practised too an honestly can't be sans amp. Plus I love hearing the way notes bloom using a good amp. Again I can vary my pick attack to get differing amounts of bloom on different notes. Yea baby I like to practice all those expressive elements made possible by nice AMPS. Plus you should practice blowing over some kind of backing track a lot. Whether it's BIAB or just you comping with a looper (hey a chance to practise your comping too). This is all great advice. All of the above.

As far as adding speakers. Every doubling of speaker cone area adds 3dB in volume. Which is the same as doubling the output power of the amp (not doubling the volume but the output power. This assumes speakers with the same sensitivity. So of you have a 20 watt amp and add a second its now as loud as a 40 watt amp.

Bye, no more feeding the trolls.

[Irez87]

Question,

I thought of this last jam session

But we are often expected to play out of house equipment, including amps.

I brought my DVJazz to a jam session and was told I couldn't setup, a case of too many guitarists

I figured out how to dial my sound with that amp (it is very dark, so I figured out how to dial in that Johnny Smith sound)

Than the host says I have to plug into a JC-120...

Me, I personally hate those amps (all a matter of taste)

I couldn't get the right decay of notes, they didn't ring out like I like, and they weren't as round.

Since I obsess over my tone, I couldn't get over the inconsistencies...

So, how do you plan for that?

Not arguing, just saying. The sound of the guitar, sans amp, needs to be developed to a point that the amp is just an extension and a literal amplification of that pure sound.

Listen to David Russell and John Williams, that is pure sound.

Johnny Smith, pure sound.

Then again, listen to Sco and Frisell. A beautifully different conception, but there is still an attention to tone construction.

[ronjazz]

Obsession with your "sound" may be counterproductive; most of the top electric guitarists, especially in jazz, can play through just about anything and sound good; in fact, I've personally experienced some of the very top players playing instruments they didn't own through amps they didn't care about, and there was no question as to who was playing. So, while it is probably not a bad idea to practice amplified occasionally, it certainly isn't where your sound comes from if you're an accomplished jazz player. As a former jazz club producer, I've supplied my own amplifiers to everybody from Jim Hall to Kenny Burrell to Joe Pass, and, for the most part, they just wanted it to work. In fact, a Polytone I set up for Jim malfunctioned, and, in typical Hall fashion, as I was apologizing, he said "It's probably me". Many of the name players travel with a small "head", Jim carried a Walter Woods with him for years.

[lawson-stone]

This is my last post on this. I'm not feeding the trolls around here anymore.

YOU SHOULD PRACTICE WITH AN AMP A LOT OF THE TIME. PERIOD!!!!

Dynamics??? You have wayyyyy more Dynamics through amp. The volume is louder and more robust so you can get much more different nuances by varying your pick attack. I love using that technique. Varying the pick attack within lines to emphasise certain notes and have other notes less loud as flavor. Those kinds of things should be practised too an honestly can't be sans amp. Plus I love hearing the way notes bloom using a good amp. Again I can vary my pick attack to get differing amounts of bloom on different notes. Yea baby I like to practice all those expressive elements made possible by nice AMPS. Plus you should practice blowing over some kind of backing track a lot. Whether it's BIAB or just you comping with a looper (hey a chance to practise your comping too). This is all great advice. All of the above.

As far as adding speakers. Every doubling of speaker cone area adds 3dB in volume. Which is the same as doubling the output power of the amp (not doubling the volume but the output power. This assumes speakers with the same sensitivity. So of you have a 20 watt amp and add a second its now as loud as a 40 watt amp.

Bye, no more feeding the trolls.

Trolls? Most of these posts are from some well respected people on this forum. You seem unable to deal with folks who don't just roll over when you yell at them.

You made some good points. Others disagree. It's not World peace or curing cancer, so chill out!

[Irez87]

@ronjazz

That's why it's gotta come from the fingers first.

All the people I've gone to for my own studies, even bassists, have told me as such.

Jim Hall sounds like Jim Hall because of his fingas

Kenny Burrell is the same.

Joe Pass...

He sounded good on some recordings and then kinda sloppy (tone-wise) on others... Branding is biatch. Still a monster player and the first jazz guitarist I listened to... Love his duets with Ella.

Btw, mystic pizza? I wanna hear more stories of you supplying amps to pro's, ron!

I will gather the marsh mellows and gather sticks for the camp fire.

Seriously, whatever happened to the art of telling a good story?

the internet...

Can't live with it....

Can't live without it...

Grrr....

[princeplanet]

@ronjazz

...
Joe Pass...

He sounded good on some recordings and then kinda sloppy (tone-wise) on others... Branding is biatch. Still a monster player and the first jazz guitarist I listened to... .

Hmmm, interesting case that one. As the main "troll" who has also been putting up the "it's all in fingers" argument, Joe Pass is almost an example of the opposite! I mean, I love his playing on Joy Spring, but find a lot of the DI sounding recordings almost unlistenable. The main difference is the amp tone, hence an argument for practicing with an amp. But I think more accurately, Joe may have been too blase about tone on some of those records. I bet he would have sounded better unplugged, seriously, with maybe a mic up to the strings instead!

This is why I say that the amp tone has to be complimentary to the "fingers", to enhance expression instead of quashing it. Everyone knows that listening to a straight DI tone of an electric guitar sounds like ass, it's not like what comes off the guitar to the ear at all! So the next step, the amp, has to put the natural dynamics back in there, but it can't, it's already a different playing field.

I record for a living (have done for many years), and I take DI's off guitars all the time for the purpose of re-amping (if required). For rock, you don't want any of the original dynamic, just like a keyboardist playing a synth doesn't care for his "touch" on the keys to be faithfully reproduced. But for Jazz guitar, a technique I like is to mic up the guitar as well as the cab, taking care to phase align, and bringing some real human dynamic back into the performance. It separates wheat from chaff, it really does. Good players sound better, bad players sound worse (so I turn off the gtr mic!).

If some of you feel that tone should come from the amp, that is akin to playing a synthesiser as opposed to a piano. And that's fine, whatever blows your hair back. But I'd just like to remind everyone that a modern guitar pickup is not a microphone, it's way more non linear.

[gggomez]

This is becoming a good discussion. ronjazz can i order your local bottlo to deliver you some beverage and you can tell us more of your experiences with those legends?

[Irez87]

@princeplanet

I meant his choice of playing any guitar and getting stuck with guitars that may have been shoddily made. Guitar branding.

that said, please don't call me a troll

This is a troll:

[Bobalou]

Trolls? Most of these posts are from some well respected people on this forum. You seem unable to deal with folks who don't just roll over when you yell at them.

1) If they can really play and know good tone they'll get what I'm saying.

2) I never yelled at anyone.

3) That's right I HAVE SPOKEN!!!!!!!!!!! So that's it, now bow down, end of debate. I HAVE SPOKEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So there's no need for ANY further debate on this. I HAVE SPOKEN!!!!!!!!!!!
That's it. Once I HAVE SPOKEN your feelings on the matter are irrelevant at best because I HAVE SPOKEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[princeplanet]

@princeplanet

I meant his choice of playing any guitar and getting stuck with guitars that may have been shoddily made. Guitar branding.

that said, please don't call me a troll

This is a troll:

Hehe -another great Python scene (well, they're all great aren't they). But I was inferring that I be the troll in question ... Totally get what you're saying though. I remember a telling quote from Wes saying he spent little time on mechanics, either the guitar or the amp. He couldn't understand why other players were so obsessed with gear (like on this Forum eh?). He was all about the ears and the fingers (oh, and that thumb too I suppose...)

[Bobalou]

Hehe -another great Python scene (well, they're all great aren't they). But I was inferring that I be the troll in question ... Totally get what you're saying though. I remember a telling quote from Wes saying he spent little time on mechanics, either the guitar or the amp. He couldn't understand why other players were so obsessed with gear (like on this Forum eh?). He was all about the ears and the fingers (oh, and that thumb too I suppose...)

Oh thank you if you're quoting Wes on this your making my point for me. Because in an interview Wes also said that he ALWAYS practiced with an amp. Wes said that to him "the guitar and the amp are one." Yes Wes said that in an interview and I happen to agree.

Yes also too much obsession with gear. Especially on forums. You gotta understand tho that for a lot of guys having this piece of gear or that other boutique doodad is like a status symbol for them. Ok not judging just stating what I think is a fact. But then again how many umpteen times have you turned on a YouTube video with some guy who's got the most expensive boutique gear in the world but then he starts playing and he can't play worth crap? For me though the ultimate "status symbol" is being able to play extremely well. A differentcperspective i suppose. Then I should be able to plug into any decent working mans amp and be able to just light up the sky with my playing.

Of my jazz guitar heroes. George Benson plays a Hot Rod Deluxe.Wes played a very unremarkable, by most reports, solid state Standel amp. Pat Metheny plays through an old school digital Guitar preamp you can get on ebay all day for 350 bucks. And for probably 25 years before that he played through an Inexpensive solid state "Acoustic" brand amp. An original Acoustic not the reissues. Not expensive or anywhere near boutique but they had a great clean tone. So that's what it actually means that tone is in the fingers. You don't need this boutique mega buck doodad to play and sound great. Ya do need a decent working amp though.

[christianm77]

Oh thank you if you're quoting Wes on this your making my point for me. Because in an interview Wes also said that he ALWAYS practiced with an amp. Wes said that to him "the guitar and the amp are one." Yes Wes said that in an interview and I happen to agree.

Yes also too much obsession with gear. Especially on forums. You gotta understand tho that for a lot of guys having this piece of gear or that other boutique doodad is like a status symbol for them. Ok not judging just stating what I think is a fact. But then again how many umpteen times have you turned on a YouTube video with some guy who's got the most expensive boutique gear in the world but then he starts playing and he can't play worth crap? For me though the ultimate "status symbol" is being able to play extremely well. A differentcperspective i suppose. Then I should be able to plug into any decent working mans amp and be able to just light up the sky with my playing.

Of my jazz guitar heroes. George Benson plays a Hot Rod Deluxe.Wes played a very unremarkable, by most reports, solid state Standel amp. Pat Metheny plays through an old school digital Guitar preamp you can get on ebay all day for 350 bucks. And for probably 25 years before that he played through an Inexpensive solid state "Acoustic" brand amp. An original Acoustic not the reissues. Not expensive or anywhere near boutique but they had a great clean tone. So that's what it actually means that tone is in the fingers. You don't need this boutique mega buck doodad to play and sound great. Ya do need a decent working amp though.

If you dig back through the posts, you can see that there are disagreements between some excellent teachers.

Myself, I've gone back to practicing with an amp for reasons similar to those you and a few others here have identified...

Re: gear, well I have to say that there are many professional working guitar players out there playing gigs on instruments worth £2,000 and less. I see relatively few high end archtops - the London scene players are more likely to play a Gibson 335 or an Eastman (or a Tele). Amps wise, it's usually a Fender of some type (quite often one of the cheaper ones!), a Polytone or an AER.

Not crap gear by any means but no boutique. Some guys have great instruments, for sure, but most working guitar players seem to want one guitar that covers many bases. Jim Mullen plays a budget Aria Pro Archtop through a Compact 60. He sounds mega. He used to use a GK bass amp and sounded exactly the same.

Anyway, DavidB has told me that Jonathon Kreisberg is very picky about amps.... But many guitarists don't care too much. If you are playing clean it doesn't make a huge difference IMO. The quality of the pickups is a big factor in this. I find a good pickup will sound better through all amps, while a good amp can flatter a bad pickup...