Fretting Hand Thumb

[jzucker]

If you can play everything you need to play, seems unnecessary.

who can predict today what you will need to play tomorrow...or in 5 years...or in 10?

I'll give a tip that was given to me during my studies with Dennis Sandole...

Play an F Barre chord. Unless you are a freak of nature, your thumb should naturally fall into the "correct" position on the back of the neck. Now, play an open C chord. Did your thumb move? If it did, you are losing efficiency. Rapidly switch back and forth between the F Barre and the C chord. Is there any wasted movement?

[GuitarGerry]

I'll give a tip that was given to me during my studies with Dennis Sandole...

Play an F Barre chord. Unless you are a freak of nature, your thumb should naturally fall into the "correct" position on the back of the neck. Now, play an open C chord. Did your thumb move? If it did, you are losing efficiency. Rapidly switch back and forth between the F Barre and the C chord. Is there any wasted movement?

Well, that's one approach, and nothing wrong with it, but does your wrist stay completely straight as you move between these positions? Also, how often do you jump around the neck like that? In real-world situations there's gradual progression up and down the neck most of the time...and gradual adjustment of thumb position. As I outlined in my last posts, I keep my thumb to the left, but it will straighten out as I descend the neck. A straight wrist is a good indication of good technique IMO. Some players manage to do that with the classical approach, granted, but they invariably look like Gerry Marsden from the pacemakers...not great:

[Stanford J17]

The point of having you thumb anywhere is to maintain a neutral, relaxed, straight wrist position. There are of course things you have to play that will require you to briefly bend the wrist but once you do, get it back to straight. I have seen John Williams hook his thumb over the neck in first position and gradually move it down as he ascended the neck. A bent wrist is a weakened and strained wrist. Don't worry about your thumb position, look at your wrist and keep it straight as much as you can.

That is what it's all about!

If you are playing in a classical position, with footstool and neck up high, having the thumb over the neck you would bend your wrist - BAD IDEA

If you are playing on a barstool with your guitar on the right leg parallel to the ground, having your thumb in the middle of the neck you would bend your wrist - BAD IDEA again

As with all the other things, there is no ONE right way to it. It always depends on a lot of things...

But always remember to keep your wrist as straight as possible ;-)

[whiskey02]

If you're playing blues/rock and frequently bending notes, having your thumb in the middle of the neck is absolutely incorrect and "poor" technique for what you are trying to accomplish. "Technique" is not about some old crank setting down rules that bust your ass, it's about using your body in the most natural tension free way so you can avoid injuries and keep playing.

[citizenk74]

I think we should think of the bending scenario as a special case and thus an exception to the strongly recommended thumb behind the neck (with exceptions) and straight wrist (with exceptions) techniques. YMMV.

[PhilipGreenwood]

I've got big hands, long thumb and fingers. One thing that really annoys me is the statement: "you must place your thumb in the middle of the neck"

It just does not work!
I've played for over 30 years and getting some shred speed jazz fusion moving at high tempos. I wanted to squeeze some more notes per second and saw a video with this thumb in the middle.
Tried it. Hated it. I just could not make it work, and it got generally more impossible going to 12th fret and higher.
I don't hook my thumb but I have to break the thumb law often. I do not have any problems with long stretches but someone has to bury this thumb lie for good.
It does not work for large hands, skinny neck electric guitars, or if the guitar is pointing sideways as you're standing up and rocking.
Even playing a fat acoustic I can't do this thumb yoga. Pure nonsense.

[Litterick]

Who says, "You must place your thumb in the middle of the neck"? I have heard the opposite often.

[S F]

As long as you aren't hurting your hand I say go for it. Adding a fifth finger means 25% more fingers on the fretting hand.

I like to remember what Joe Pass said about chords though. Always use the least amount of fingers as possible. Don't make playing harder than it has to be. I worry that compromising your thumb position might tie up your hand for a moment in a song. I'd work out which chords are reasonable.

[PhilipGreenwood]

Who says, "You must place your thumb in the middle of the neck"? I have heard the opposite often.

I've seen this point made in just about every website for classical and acoustic guitar. In addition, this thumb position is strongly advised in many non-classical websites plus YouTube too.
Just search for "thumb position guitar" and check the results.
The main points:

• Thumb in middle of neck

• Thumb underneath middle finger

I won't list every website as this has been mentioned often.

[PhilipGreenwood]

As long as you aren't hurting your hand I say go for it. Adding a fifth finger means 25% more fingers on the fretting hand.

I like to remember what Joe Pass said about chords though. Always use the least amount of fingers as possible. Don't make playing harder than it has to be. I worry that compromising your thumb position might tie up your hand for a moment in a song. I'd work out which chords are reasonable.

I struggle with fast melodic passages at 10th fret and higher using thumb in middle of neck, and underneath middle finger.
Also, having thumb perpendicular to fretboard.
I have zero problems with chords, as I flip between thumb over 6th string to thumb in middle of neck for stretch chords.
But for solos, my thumb slides around the neck near 6th string and points 45° up fretboard.
Note
I do have oddly large fingers and hands but I am 6ft4. I've tried to apply the standard thumb rules but it just feels wrong and slows me down.

[Litterick]

I've seen this point made in just about every website for classical and acoustic guitar. In addition, this thumb position is strongly advised in many non-classical websites plus YouTube too.
Just search for "thumb position guitar" and check the results.
The main points:

• Thumb in middle of neck

• Thumb underneath middle finger

I won't list every website as this has been mentioned often.

I cannot see any sites promoting this technique for electric guitar. I learned from books concerned with jazz or rock guitar, all of which advised against the thumb in the middle of the neck. I am not familiar with classical and acoustic guitar, but I am not surprised to learn they have different techniques.

[PhilipGreenwood]

I cannot see any sites promoting this technique for electric guitar. I learned from books concerned with jazz or rock guitar, all of which advised against the thumb in the middle of the neck. I am not familiar with classical and acoustic guitar, but I am not surprised to learn they have different techniques.

5 Must-Know Fretting Techniques For Beginner Guitarists
"The proper placement of your thumb should be at the back of the neck, opposite your index finger"
Beginner’s Notes – The Correct Thumb Position – DrKevGuitar.com
"The first is associated with classical and flamenco guitarists, who adhere to a strict rule that the thumb must always be on the centre line of the back of the neck"
Where to Put the Fret Hand Thumb | Hub Guitar
"Most beginners are encouraged to follow this advice:
Position the thumb behind the guitar neck.
The thumb is most often placed behind the index finger."
Etc

Just search rather than using your own guitar sites. There's loads of this advice saying the same thing.
I have also got many rock books but none of them mention thumb placement.

[frankhond]

Advice for *beginners* might be to put thumb somewhere.

Once you start getting somewhere with your playing, you need to find ways to make *your* body work at its best.

If you watch pros in any style, they each do something slightly different.

[PhilipGreenwood]

Advice for *beginners* might be to put thumb somewhere.

Once you start getting somewhere with your playing. you need to find ways to make *your* body wok at its best.

If you watch pros in any style, they each do something slightly different.

You do have a point.
I'm definitely not a beginner but will still constantly keep an eye out to fine tune anything to squeeze more technical ability.
Classical guitar has been around forever and does have a few good technical bits, but just a concern that some of the physical advice, aka rules, could seriously injure a n00b.
If I'd played my electric using the dreaded small hand rule of thumb position, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be playing any more. My oversized clown hands would be full of RSI, tendinitis and carpal tunnel syndrome.
So my tip of the year...
If you have large hands, really honestly ask your guitar instructor, teacher, guru, etc WHY you should put your valuable hands in really awkward positions just because that teacher doesn't know people differ, and some rules really need to be broken.

[Litterick]

Just search rather than using your own guitar sites. There's loads of this advice saying the same thing.
I have also got many rock books but none of them mention thumb placement.

It is not that important to me, and I am not minded to follow your instructions; besides, I do not have any guitar sites.

The books with which I learned, the works of established guitarists and reputable publishers, offered different advice to that of the websites of Dr Kev, Ze and Grey.

[PhilipGreenwood]

It is not that important to me, and I am not minded to follow your instructions; besides, I do not have any guitar sites.

The books with which I learned, the works of established guitarists and reputable publishers, offered different advice to that of the websites of Dr Kev, Ze and Grey.

Suit yourself.
I've got big hands and have played several hours a day for 34 years.
I'm just saying that the classical guitar advice is thumb in middle of neck, below the second finger.
My experience, and big hands, say this is not good advice.

[BWV]

Classical necks are wider and flatter than electric, so you can’t really accomplish much wrapping your thumb around like on a strat

but if you just hold your hand up and relax it, the thumb tends to fall in line with the second finger - so on that basis the rule makes sense for other types of guitars, you also sacrifice some independence of the 3rd and 4th finger by bringing the thumb around as it places the hand at an angle to the fretboard

[PhilipGreenwood]

Classical necks are wider and flatter than electric, so you can’t really accomplish much wrapping your thumb around like on a strat

but if you just hold your hand up and relax it, the thumb tends to fall in line with the second finger - so on that basis the rule makes sense for other types of guitars, you also sacrifice some independence of the 3rd and 4th finger by bringing the thumb around as it places the hand at an angle to the fretboard

I'm playing an acoustic whilst on holiday, but my usual guitar is a Strat.
I don't hook thumb unless I'm trying to damp strings or if I'm doing lots of bends.

My main gripe with standard issue classical guitar technique is that when I'm playing an acoustic around 12th fret, placing my extra long thumb in the middle of the neck is almost impossible. My wrist is almost at 90° which is seriously not good at all.
I've found a better solution:
Place the thumb under the 6th-5th string, with the thumb under the index finger, and angled 45° to fretboard. I get a fairly straight wrist, can stretch a mile, and can play at shred speeds no problem.

As soon as I replace thumb into the middle of the neck, I simply cannot play. It's beyond uncomfortable and this is what all my replies in this thread have been about.

[PhilipGreenwood]

Here's my wrist when I'm playing an acoustic in classical posture (guitar between legs, neck 45° to vertical). My thumb is in the middle of the neck, under the middle finger. My fingers are on the 9th to 12th fret of the 4th string



Now I've moved my thumb to under the 5th-6th string. Notice how the angle of the wrist is improved...



I hope this photos point to the problem: for larger hands, the thumb has to move around the neck to keep the wrist as straight as possible. Some rules need to be modified and not obeyed without question...

[BWV]

Here's my wrist when I'm playing an acoustic in classical posture (guitar between legs, neck 45° to vertical). My thumb is in the middle of the neck, under the middle finger. My fingers are on the 9th to 12th fret of the 4th string



Now I've moved my thumb to under the 5th-6th string. Notice how the angle of the wrist is improved...



I hope this photos point to the problem: for larger hands, the thumb has to move around the neck to keep the wrist as straight as possible. Some rules need to be modified and not obeyed without question...

have you tried the guitar on the left leg, elevated w either a footstool or one of the various devices? If you hold you hand up like you are playing then move your elbow out and in, the hand moves at around a 45 degree angle to the ground - this is why CG players put the guitar on the left leg and elevate - the neck then follows the natural angle of the hand movement as the elbow goes out and in and allows the same hand/wrist angle relative to the neck up and down the fretboard

[PhilipGreenwood]

have you tried the guitar on the left leg, elevated w either a footstool or one of the various devices? If you hold you hand up like you are playing then move your elbow out and in, the hand moves at around a 45 degree angle to the ground - this is why CG players put the guitar on the left leg and elevate - the neck then follows the natural angle of the hand movement as the elbow goes out and in and allows the same hand/wrist angle relative to the neck up and down the fretboard

Photos taken with my left leg raised on 1 foot tall platform, guitar rested on that leg as you mention. I did say classical posture somewhere (implied use of leg stool).
My guitar is being held as per classical instruction. Foot raised, fretboard at right height, and my thumb also in standard location.
I am doing all the things but my point is that doing all these things puts a severe bend in my left wrist...this is due to large hands.

BTW
Cheers for mentioning foot stool but I was using one anyway.

[Stevegrant]

i think it has a lot to do with the guitar position. Classical guitar is played with the neck angled up, it's really difficult to put your thumb over playing that way. Typical electric position is horitzontal and you arms are lower, so thumb over is natural and putting your thumb in the middle feels weird.

[PhilipGreenwood]

i think it has a lot to do with the guitar position. Classical guitar is played with the neck angled up, it's really difficult to put your thumb over playing that way. Typical electric position is horitzontal and you arms are lower, so thumb over is natural and putting your thumb in the middle feels weird.

I agree. I'll use guitar neck at 45° to vertical, between legs, and left foot raised. I'm now breaking the law and thumb is on back of neck, but under 6th string (fat 'E'), and thumb 45° rather than parallel to frets. This gives range, light touch, and almost straight wrist.

On electric, rules are beaten up and thrown out the window. I'll play shreddy solo bursts with thumb hooked over, forget using my pinky when drilling out legato, and as for a foot stool...really?

You can probably guess I prefer my electric, but there’s always going to be that time when someone hands you an acoustic, with no plectrum, and says "play" - that's when your fat acoustic practice with fingers is going to reward you.