Fingerstyle Technique: Thumb In or Out?

[Rob MacKillop]

I've played the lute for twenty years, and wondered if people here are aware of the two different techniques that are used for that instrument, and if whether some of you play with one of these techniques?

The two techniques are known as Thumb Out (TO) or Thumb In (TI), which refer to either having the thumb outside the fingers after playing a stroke, or whether it folds into the palm area, beneath the fingers after playing. A video will make this clear:

Here, the player is playing TI. You can clearly see the thumb moving into the palm, beneath the fingers. The advantage is that single-note runs are really clear and strong, and can be played very fast.

It it is a technique associated with the six-course lute, which has six pairs of strings (though the first was often a single string - it was hard to get two thin gut strings to sound pure together), which was common from c.1500 to the 1580s. Eventually someone added a seventh course...then an eighth...etc, etc, until the late baroque period when thirteen courses became the norm. The addition of extra courses, plus the move from polyphonic modal music of the Renaissance to melody-bass-harmony of the Baroque period, triggered a change of hand position to Thumb Out.

The lute music I have played has mostly been from the 17th century, on lutes with extra courses, and I have always used Thumb Out. It's also a technique used by most fingerstyle guitarists. But I can't help feel that the earlier Thumb In technique could be very good for jazz players, especially those who often like to put in single-note runs into their arrangements and improvisations. Curiously, there are no hammer-ons or pull-offs in this music. Every note is crisply articulated. While the later Baroque style had slurs all over the place.

So, any Thumb In players out there? If not, why not give it a try? You might like it!

[matt.guitarteacher]

Interesting. Who'd a thunk it.

So, in terms of speed with single-note lines, is the thinking just that the fingers are less "in the way" of each other?

[Rob MacKillop]

The speed in single-note lines comes from alternating thumb and index. Rather than the finger joints flexing, the whole arm moves back and forth. So, there is not much movement by the fingers during scale runs.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Could you do a video going over the thumb-in technique for those of us who don't have access to information for lutenists? I've always wanted to have a technique that could freely alternate between classical style fingerpicking and high speed single note lines, but I've never liked using a thumbpick. This seems like a perfect way of working on that!

[Rob MacKillop]

My good friend, David, has made one already:

[Shadow of the Sun]

Based off of that video, I find the upstrokes with the index finger quite awkward. Is there any help you can give me on that?

[Jonah]

I posted link to thumb-in in concern of GB picking style... it seems to be very close to it... excep that GB still holds the pick... and lute p-i-p-i technique came to replace pick-playing when they shifted from solo to polyphonic playing... so they could play lines in 'pick' style but still have fingers free for polyphonic playing


Thumb-in also works great for ukelele...

But to my mind for heavy metal string it does not work as good... with thumb-in the index finger is at very sharp angle to strings (some players even parallel) it prings very light touch and works ok for the very light strings (with average 2.8 - 3 kgs)... but for metal strings there's just not enough power at such an angle to produce a good tone.
So I am not sure that alternated p-i-p-i picking like in rennaissance lute lines is possible...

But I think lute thumb-out which is something between thumb-in and classical could be good for fingerstyle guitar

Rob's vids actually on baroque lute romantic guitara and acoustic archtop show this right hand position perfectly I believe

[Rob MacKillop]

Sure, I play thumb out, which is exactly how I play guitar fingerstyle as well. One thing thumb-in has in its favour for jazz is that it has an inequality of stress: strong thumb, weaker index finger. In this respect it is closer to pick playing. Not everyone plays with very heavy steel strings, and I do think it has some benefit for jazz guitarists. I personally find it a hard technique to do, though many find it quite easy. If you swing a relaxed hand and arm up from beneath the strings, it is natural for the thumb to be inside the outstretched fingers. Well, I mention it only for consideration: some here might find it useful. Interesting that it is not a million miles away from Benson technique - I never thought of that.

[grahambop]

Hi Rob

Where do you get your lutes from? Just being curious, I've always liked the lute and would love to play one some day. I'm talking renaissance lute e.g. Dowland.

I'm guessing they can be fearsomely expensive beasts.

[Jonah]

I guess in UK you can rent one from lute society..

Cheap 'pakistanians' are available at EMS and thomann... my first one was thomann 7-course... good piece of wood on the top, some adjustment and it worked well for beginner... I bought by recomendation of Luciano Contini so I trusted the advice.
Then later I ordered one from luthier - cost may vary... mine was about EUR1000 and good for the price... But I really made long searches about price/quality relation...

I also own 13-course baroque lute from the same luthier which is my main affection together with jazz guitar)))
This one is really good but i feel that soon I will need a better one... and I think I will have to sell everything except jazz box cause the price will be around EUR4000

For Dowland you might need renaissance lute with 9 - 10 courses because his repertoire varied while he he added courses to his lute with time... but most of his works can be also played on 7 or 8 course....

[Rob MacKillop]

Lutes are just as expensive as archtops, but without the cheaper Ibanez's and Eastmans. One of my students turned up with a Pakistani lute, and it is terrible. Unplayable, and a hideous sound.

There is a new company called Lute D'or, I think, based in China, who look set to be the lute version of Eastman. I await to see the quality and prices. I don't think they are shipping yet.

if you live in the States, the best high-quality student lutes are made by Gamut Strings (google them), and are recommended.

Most of Dowland's best pieces are for seven courses.

[grahambop]

Thanks Rob, useful info.

I think it'll be a few years yet before I take the plunge!

I've been enjoying your lute videos - great stuff!

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks, Graham. Much appreciated. BTW, I often watch your videos. Inspiring!

[grahambop]

I guess in UK you can rent one from lute society..

Cheap 'pakistanians' are available at EMS and thomann... my first one was thomann 7-course... good piece of wood on the top, some adjustment and it worked well for beginner... I bought by recomendation of Luciano Contini so I trusted the advice.
Then later I ordered one from luthier - cost may vary... mine was about EUR1000 and good for the price... But I really made long searches about price/quality relation...

I also own 13-course baroque lute from the same luthier which is my main affection together with jazz guitar)))
This one is really good but i feel that soon I will need a better one... and I think I will have to sell everything except jazz box cause the price will be around EUR4000

For Dowland you might need renaissance lute with 9 - 10 courses because his repertoire varied while he he added courses to his lute with time... but most of his works can be also played on 7 or 8 course....

Thanks Jonah.

Just thinking ahead really. For the time being I'm happy to play Dowland pieces on the classical guitar. I got the Diana Poulton complete Dowland edition many years ago, so at least I can read lute tablature!

[edh]

Question Rob, when playing lute do you ever pluck the second string by itself? In other words looking at the lute from its playing position the "second" would be the furthest from you on any given string set.

I hope I'm clear.

thanks

[ecj]

I can't find it now, but someone once posted a bunch of vids on this forum of a guy who plays a lot of George Benson tunes and some nice jazz guitar in general using this technique.

Maybe on the Benson picking thread? Hoping someone else can find it.

I wonder if volume becomes an issue. It's nail-less, right? Might be hard to keep up with any other instrument unless you're just playing solo.

[Shadow of the Sun]

If someone finds the video ecj is talking about, I'd love to see it.

[Rob MacKillop]

Question Rob, when playing lute do you ever pluck the second string by itself? In other words looking at the lute from its playing position the "second" would be the furthest from you on any given string set.

No.



However...the bass strings, played with the thumb, are octave pairs, and very rarely the tablature asks you to pluck just the highest octave of the two. It's extremely rare, though.

[Rob MacKillop]

I wonder if volume becomes an issue. It's nail-less, right? Might be hard to keep up with any other instrument unless you're just playing solo.

Not sure what you mean by "keeping up with" - speed or volume? Players who play Thumb In are known for speed playing of single-note runs. As for volume - that's what amps are for

[grahambop]

Thanks, Graham. Much appreciated. BTW, I often watch your videos. Inspiring!

Thanks! Just been listening to your Bach on the banjo, like it. I've got an old Windsor 5-string banjo which I got from a relative who didn't want it. I cleaned it up and put new strings on it and it sounds ok. Must learn some pieces on it sometime.

[ecj]

Not sure what you mean by "keeping up with" - speed or volume? Players who play Thumb In are known for speed playing of single-note runs. As for volume - that's what amps are for

Volume.

Never played a lute. How loud are those things compared to a classical guitar? I thought the main reason Segovia went for nails was to create projection.

[Rob MacKillop]

Ah, ok. In a small room, a classical guitar is louder. However, the sound of a lute travels further before dipping, and consequently can appear louder in a larger room. It was used a lot in a variety of ensemble situations, but usually with other quiet instruments such as small harp, viol, voice, where it holds it own quite comfortably.

Actually, there were many different types of lutes, the biggest being about six feet long, called theorbos, which had six or seven fingered strings, and seven or eight free-floating bass strings of great length and depth. These were used in baroque orchestras - I've played one myself - and are a LOT louder than classical guitars in any size if room.

[Shadow of the Sun]

I've been messing around with this technique for the couple of days. Well, the thumb-index technique. The rest of the lute right hand technique is a bit more difficult for me to grok.

I can thumb-index about as fast as I can play with a pick at the moment, and I can definitely improve my speed; I haven't woodshedded enough picking. The ability to freely move between Chet Atkins style fingerpicked lines and high speed "alternate picking" is an excellent trick to have.

I've even been experimenting with thumb-index "sweep picking". It's not quite there yet, but it has promise!

Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention, Rob!

[grahambop]

Actually, there were many different types of lutes, the biggest being about six feet long, called theorbos, which had six or seven fingered strings, and seven or eight free-floating bass strings of great length and depth. These were used in baroque orchestras - I've played one myself - and are a LOT louder than classical guitars in any size if room.

Those things are incredible. I guess if you suddenly turn round with one, the whole orchestra has to duck!

[Rob MacKillop]

Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention, Rob!

My job here is done

That's good news! Keep at it, and report back your findings.