Alternate Picking (Floating hand VS Anchored)

[JakeAcci]

I've spent a LOT of time on picking technique and working on speed for lines.

Made some cool strides, definitely learned a lot, never got where I wanted with it completely.

I often think about all the time I spent on that and the purpose of that goal was, and whether my time could have been better spent elsewhere.

There is such a big musical world out there (or 'in there,' in our instruments, in our minds) and to practice picking speed is so accessible, tangible, and seductive.

When the end result is that you can get on stage with a quartet and 'burn' through rhythm changes playing bebop lines, I think...what is that? What is the point? For some people, that is everything, for others it's nothing, for others it's part of the game.

I'm not really taking a stance here, just saying they are questions that kick around my head these days.

As for anchoring vs not I've played with a lot of different grips and found the ones that give me more speed generally give me less control, and both those variables can get pretty extreme. So I've often wondered whether it's better to work on controlling the wild, fast grips, or speeding up the controlled grips. I've had better luck controlling the fast, but I really would like to have a faster 'controlled' grip, the standard palm close to the bridge, pivoting sidewise at the wrist, fist-gripped grip. For me it is the most straightforward tone and easiest to add accents to. The floating stuff can get very fast but to my ears often has this 'jazz guitar' tone that I don't want for everything.

I agree with PrincePlanet that it's tough to find a jazz guitarist in the whole world with a great sound at fast tempos. Julian Lage sounds pretty ridiculously clear to me, though, with accents, good harmony, rhythm, sensible lines, etc. I feel like a lot of guys, even pros, kind of 'get by' and do what they can but it's usually missing something. Tim Miller sounds amazing, a lot of legato, but his sound is very, very specific and maybe not applicable to most of us who usually want more of an attack.

Also, does anybody else have this mental block where they just feel like they 'should' be able to alternate pick everything? I can do economy and other styles, but something about the tone and consistency of alternate picking, the control and the fact that it's a SYSTEM is just very appealing to me, and my OCD mind has a tough time letting go of it ,hah.

[ecj]

Could not agree more with your thoughts on alt-picking Jake. Here's the issue for me. Who is the best alt-picker on jazz guitar? Maybe Martino? Do you want to sound like that?

If not, why are we practicing it? I CAN'T HELP MYSELF!! AAAAHHH!

[JakeAcci]

hah you know, if my articulation sounded like martino or jesse van ruler I REALLY would not mind.

I often mention this guy Greg Duncan who plays here in Boston who alternate picks everything and he just burns and plays great lines.

Personally I mix techniques and slur a bit, not a lot like the fusion players, but much more than somebody like martino.

[princeplanet]

Could not agree more with your thoughts on alt-picking Jake. Here's the issue for me. Who is the best alt-picker on jazz guitar? Maybe Martino? Do you want to sound like that?

If not, why are we practicing it? I CAN'T HELP MYSELF!! AAAAHHH!

Know what you mean, you get seduced by the challenge "Damn it, I should be able to lick this!"...

Lucky for me, I don't listen much to guitar players (or is that unlucky?)... so I find myself slurring more lines- even after I have mastered alt picking them- cos it sounds more like horns. I've retrained my right hand 3 times now, and probably will again, just to try to sound more like I'm singing, or even talking through the instrument, y'know? The time it took, I might as well have taken up the sax!

But there ya go, we're stuck with the beast. Are there other instruments in Jazz that require a similar masochistic streak? Dunno whether I'm flattering us here, but I honestly can't think of a harder artistic discipline to aspire to than Jazz guitar at an "elite" level. It's just so darn ridiculously impossible! Perhaps the sooner we let it go, the better...

Like Philco said: " There has to come a time when you go your own way and write your own style and play some simple and beautiful things. That will be enough."

[ecj]

I think the only traditional jazz instrument harder to play bebop on than guitar is probably the trombone.

To me, the biggest problem with jazz guitar is that there is absolutely no recognized standard pedagogy for approaching the instrument (how to hold the pick, how to pick, how to fret, etc.). This is pretty different than sax, where there's really only one way to play a note, and everyone does it the same.

[ChuckCorbis]

I think the only traditional jazz instrument harder to play bebop on than guitar is probably the trombone.

To me, the biggest problem with jazz guitar is that there is absolutely no recognized standard pedagogy for approaching the instrument (how to hold the pick, how to pick, how to fret, etc.). This is pretty different than sax, where there's really only one way to play a note, and everyone does it the same.

I remember meeting saxophonist Davey Schildkraut towards the end of his life. He's the guy Mingus mistook for Bird in a DownBeat blindfold test. He played with Miles Davis before Coltrane. Also a lot for Pete Rugolo and Stan Kenton. You can hear him on 'Solar'. He said there was this young sax player who would come night after night to hear Miles and the group. He would pick Davey's brain on the breaks about alternate fingerings, embouchure and ways to play harmonics on the sax. Long conversations. Lots of question and ideas. Basically running it by Davey. It was a young John Coltrane from Philadelphia. His teacher and musical mentor at the time was a guitar player named Dennis Sandole. I believe Pat Martino and Harry Leahey also studied with Sandole. I guess we are not alone.

[ecj]

That's a great story, Chuck!

My brother is a sax player, so I'm familiar with all of their topics. He's even had folks come up after gigs and ask him what kind of reeds he uses. He still thinks that "guitar players are weird" in terms of all the stuff we debate.

I guess what I meant is, when sax players start with a teacher, they learn a basic set of mouth positions, they learn a C major scale, and then everything grows from there.

When guitarists start, depending on the teacher they might:

- hold the pick the "standard" way, like Benson, some weird combination of both (my guitar teacher taught me to pick like Eddie Van Halen), or even classical
- learn to use all the fingers on their left hand, or only three, or with thumb
- play a steel string acoustic, nylon string, electric rock guitar, arch top, dobro
- learn CAGED, 3-note per string, Leavitt 12 position system, open only, or a variety of other scale positions
- might learn to alternate pick, gypsy pick, finger pick, play with all downstrokes, play with all upstrokes, slur everything, slur nothing, slide everything, slide nothing

There are a million ways to play guitar. It's pretty weird in that regard.

[ChuckCorbis]

I understand what you mean but if your ear is the guide no matter what instrument, you'll figure out how to get it done. That's what I meant. I don't buy into it as a setback though, all the choices on guitar. What I was driving at was Pat, Harry and Coltrane all have their own voice regardless of instrument and teacher. I have a good friend Glenn Zottola. He plays trumpet and sax equally well at the highest level. He learned primarily by ear. Doesn't really know technical stuff. Check out the Berkeley Brass Company. They named a trumpet mouthpiece after Glenn. I agree to disagree with the utmost respect for you guys and thanks for the compliment on my tone. $200 no name guitar,$80 crate amp, $6 set of 10s. fender medium pick, $29 webcam,$50 computer from the thrift shop, 47 years of noodling, 2 kids in college and a wife who had 2 liver transplants. That's my secret. LOL

[Philco]

Are you reminding us, or reminding yourself?

Yeah for sure.
It's that "living for the future" habit.

"One day I will get everything just "so" and from that day forth I will be where I want to be. Until that day I will keep working on "it"....

It's a nonsense of course but I fall for it every day.

I truly admire people who go out and play gigs and test themselves in that way.
Perhaps because it's "real". Tangible. You're actually "doing" and not endlessly "planning".
That's a definite goal.


Oh and I agree withe Jake re Julian Lage. He has incredible control of his right hand......and everything else!

[fritz jones]

this is how you do it:

[JakeAcci]

i thought the left hand was supposed to be in sync with the right hand? or is that just an old school thing?

[ChuckCorbis]

BACK ON TOPIC. I think there is also a middle ground in terms of pick angle and float. Jimmy Raney comes to mind. Definitely holds the pick angle slanted a little but not all the way like Benson. He gets a really nice tone. Especially on chords and ballads. The Parker stuff he PHRASES real well. Probably my biggest influence= Jimmy Raney. I kind of mix his way and the standard way together.

[Hep To The Jive]

The problem I have with the advice of "whatever works best for you" is that in my experience ingrained bad habits are just more comfortable at the moment and switching to more technically correct technique can feel very awkward in the beginning. Leading us to believe that our inferior technique "works better" for us. But if I put in the time to sufficiently drill correct technique I almost invariably find that it's an improvement. Plus usually "correct" technique is more bio-mechanically sound and can help avoid repetitive stress type injuries later in life.




He goes into it a bit in his old instructional video. The one where he's doing a clinic for about a dozen guys and mostly talks about playing scale sequences based on the modes. He uses more of a legato style left hand technique due to his inability to pick every note cleanly. I'm a big Sco fan too. I think the clumsy but cool thing you're referring to has less to do with his technique and more to do with his feel and sense of timing. He touches on that a bit in the video too.

I remember watching that video years ago, where he was talking about it... do you know if it can be found on YouTube or something? I saw parts of it there, but not that particular discussion. And yes, I think that's his touch and his sense of timing/swing that make him special. Scofield is one of a few I never get tired of listening to. Wes, Hendrix, they had that quality as well!

So why then so much emphasis on picking? Left hand technique can be just as important when it comes to playing lines, and no reason to spend so much time developing picking, when slurs can do just fine! Or am I wrong here?

[Runepune]

I remember watching that video years ago, where he was talking about it... do you know if it can be found on YouTube or something? I saw parts of it there, but not that particular discussion. And yes, I think that's his touch and his sense of timing/swing that make him special. Scofield is one of a few I never get tired of listening to. Wes, Hendrix, they had that quality as well!

So why then so much emphasis on picking? Left hand technique can be just as important when it comes to playing lines, and no reason to spend so much time developing picking, when slurs can do just fine! Or am I wrong here?

Picking for picking's sake is pointless. But having the ability for musical reasons is good. It sounds very different from left hand pull offs/ons. If you don't feel a musical need for it, don't practice it

[ChuckCorbis]

Bireli Lagrene talks about the necessity to collapse the wrist and rest it on the bridge on solid body guitars with overdrive. Looks like his rest strokes are not prevalent on solid body. Bireli goes on to say that doesn't work on an archtop. I totally agree. Here's a guy who can change his picking to fit the situation. That's what I think is the way to go. He's got it all covered. Check him out.

[David B]

I've experimented with different approaches and for the last couple of years played like Jimmy Raney (floating hand, pick angled slightly backwards). Since the summer, I've been attempting to mimc Jesse van Ruller's picking hand (pinky locked at a fixed point on the pickguard).

See:


And here's Jesse, to show what I'm going for (excellent close up of his picking hand from 6:00-6:30):

[AmundLauritzen]

Well here is someone who uses rest-strokes when playing electric guitar:

And his little brother, Mozes does the same:

It is absolutely possible to use rest-stroke picking on electric. Of course, for someone like Bireli who mastered rest stroke picking and the age of 14(when he moved from Djangos music to modern jazz), it is not going to be a problem to tackle another picking technique. Bireli is one of a kind.

For mortals like myself, I found that the best thing is to find a universal approach. Coincidentally, I dig the sound that rest-stroke picking produces on an archtop. A kind of Benson-like attack.
So then I can use the same muscle memory for both gypsy jazz and bebop.

[Frank67]

This is a topic that interests me.

I have changed my technique many times. I started out alternate picking, then economy picking, but I always somewhat rested my palm on the bridge more or less so I never used a pure "floating" technique.

However, as I started learning gypsy jazz, I mimicked the technique of Stochelo Rosenberg to the best of my ability.
People who say that gypsy jazz players don't anchor are plain wrong. The most widely accepted and adopted gypsy picking right hand technique involves anchoring with the 3rd and 4th finger of the right hand. But there is no fixed point. The fingers barely touch the guitar, and the hand moves freely with the pick. The non-fixed anchor(the fingers slightly touch, "brush" against the guitar) helps facilitate loose and relaxed wrist movement and orientation. You want the movement to come from the wrist, and not the elbow.

Watch Stochelos right hand. He has the absolutely best gypsy picking right hand technique. For acoustic guitar, gypsy picking is simply superior.

I have adopted it to archtops now too(standardized my technique, prior to that I had different picking techniques for acoustic and electric), and sonically it gives a percussive Benson-type sound due to all the downstrokes.

I can really relate to what you have been writing here Armund. I have been struggeling with my right hand from day 1 on guitar and still feel mostly constrained by awkward right hand technique. In the summer I took a gypsy class and it sold me on the superiority of the approach. I agree that it is the most clean, most dynamic, most expressive - and also the loudest - way to play accoustic guitars. Have been working on this every since. Progress is very slow but I start to see some light. On archtops I can also see that that technique works well. On semi-accoustics it depends on how they are built, but mostly it won't work, I think. On solid bodies it really doesn't work. There just isn't enough space and as soon as one puts in distortion one needs to help avoiding unwanted noise with right hand muting which is incompatible with the hand angle. If one plays these different types of guitars it seems to me that having two right hand techniques is necessary.

Oh, and I agree that Stochello is super-fantastic and I love listening to him. I am not sure that I agree that he has the by far best right hand technique - I think Birelli or Joscho Stephan are right up there. All these people (and many others) are all great ... looks like Django brought this technique from Banjo to guitar.

[Philco]

I can really relate to what you have been writing here Armund. I have been struggeling with my right hand from day 1 on guitar and still feel mostly constrained by awkward right hand technique. In the summer I took a gypsy class and it sold me on the superiority of the approach. I agree that it is the most clean, most dynamic, most expressive - and also the loudest - way to play accoustic guitars. Have been working on this every since. Progress is very slow but I start to see some light. On archtops I can also see that that technique works well. On semi-accoustics it depends on how they are built, but mostly it won't work, I think. On solid bodies it really doesn't work. There just isn't enough space and as soon as one puts in distortion one needs to help avoiding unwanted noise with right hand muting which is incompatible with the hand angle. If one plays these different types of guitars it seems to me that having two right hand techniques is necessary.

Oh, and I agree that Stochello is super-fantastic and I love listening to him. I am not sure that I agree that he has the by far best right hand technique - I think Birelli or Joscho Stephan are right up there. All these people (and many others) are all great ... looks like Django brought this technique from Banjo to guitar.

Joscho Stephan is killer!
Don't forget Angelo Debarre.

[ChuckCorbis]

Here is one of the Masters, Johnny Smith. Some really good shots and angle of his right hand in action. He passed away this year. I really love his playing.

[ChuckCorbis]

I like the way Jim Hall changes his grip on the pick at 2:25 in this video.

[ronjazz]

lightly touching the pickguard or other strings is quite different from anchoring, for sure. the problem with a solid anchor is that it will cause physical problems for many players eventually.

[ChuckCorbis]

I'd like to add this to the mix. Love this clip of Attila Zoller. (not too much video of Oscar P. out there either if I might add)

[teok]

Use your thumb, it was good enough for Wes..and Charley Christian, to name two!.....

I just can't get upstrokes with my thumb the way Wes does. Can anybody alternate pick 16th notes with just the thumb other than Wes?

Mr James Bruno has a picking DVD, for single lines, he picks from the elbow and uses economy picking

And he shows how to rock a vicious moustache!

[ChuckCorbis]

I just can't get upstrokes with my thumb the way Wes does. Can anybody alternate pick 16th notes with just the thumb other than Wes?




And he shows how to rock a vicious moustache!

IMO If you look closely the use of an up stroke with the thumb is not usual for Wes. Those are successive down strokes for the most part on 16th note lines.