Speed Exercises For Guitar

**duds707** · 03-10-2011, 03:21 PM

Yep - should be matching that in about a week.......

**JonnyPac** · 03-10-2011, 03:31 PM

Makes me think there is an upper speed limit to what is actually musical.

**monk** · 03-10-2011, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

If this guy was getting paid by the note he'd be rich.

Above 230bpm the sustain of the electric guitar begins to works against him, reducing the clarity of the individual notes. Perhaps an acoustic guitar might work at that tempo or slightly above but when the notes start to run together the music is lost.

As someone once said "The most important thing is the space between the notes".

**MarkRhodes** · 03-10-2011, 07:17 PM

That's one w-i-d-e guitar neck. And a challenging piece to play that fast. The guy's *endurance* is incredible.

**JohnRoss** · 03-10-2011, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Makes me think there is an upper speed limit to what is actually musical.

I don't think that's it, the guy is impressively solid, even at 320 bpm. Just that it all sounds nicer (not more musical) at 170, which is quite fast enough for most mortals.

This is curious, as well; the playing is beautiful, but the sound is rough and the video is frankly horrible:

**Kojo27** · 03-11-2011, 02:19 AM

I would love to be able to play whatever these guys are playing, at such "insane" speeds; it's impressive and would build one's reputation amongst fans of a certain sort of guitar playing. But I'd hate like hell being limited to playing such "stuff" and to impressing these fans. And call me pedantic, or whatever the word would be, but I find myself thinking there's little more to such "playing" than this.

This impresses me, but it impresses me the same way masterful juggling impresses me. "Whoa, what dexterity; what hand-eye coordination; what fine motor skills." As music, it says nothing to me at all.

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Makes me think there is an upper speed limit to what is actually musical.

Yes! Exactly! If "insane" speed happens not as a "burst of fire" (think Paco de Lucia), but as a continuous onslaught - a beating over the head of endless, finger exercise-like repetition (and it can't but sound repetitious, because it's all a listener will pay attention to: the speed, the z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z of overdriven guitar tones), what is musical about that? The speed becomes a raucous, look-at-me, screamer. A stealer of the whole music-show. What was the harmony? What was the rhythm? Nobody knows, because it was all a big display of the guitar player's hands and fingers.
=======================

I might get canned for this, but what kind of people actually like such stuff? Watch this very short "really-the-fastest" video, then click on "view all comments." I rest my case.

**duds707** · 03-11-2011, 09:17 AM

The speed record thing led me to look at other noted tremelo experts on YT and I found a clip of Paul Gilbert (amongst many). He's generally reckoned to be world-class, but bearing in mind the 'flying pinky' exchange that's gone before - his was all over the place! I was quite surprised. Super-fast, clean and precise - but his fretting hand was far from minimal movement. Made me wonder whether we're all worrying too much about the finer points and not just sitting down with a metronome and getting on with it. That said, in the long committment it takes to grasp good technique that will underpin a whole life's playing, it surely has to be worth spending a few weeks training digits not to flap about?!

**Kojo27** · 03-11-2011, 11:33 AM

Exactly! MOST great players don't have the left-hand technique that you're going to get from a few weeks' work. But I guarantee you that most of them would admit that they wish they had a more efficient technique.

Heck, there are gifted players who don't use their little fingers at all. They fold it under, neatly out of the way. With enough talent and determination, a player will make music come out of the damned guitar one way or another. Stand him on his head and he'll still find a way. But of course they're doing it in spite of these bad conditions - not because of them.

Really: if you can, get a copy of Troy Stetina's great, great book "Speed Mechanics for Lead Guitar" - it's about $13 at Amazon - and although it's geared toward rock players, it'll whip a jazz player into shape, too. He covers it all, and you won't get bored with this one YouTube exercise, for the rest of your life. Ha. (But do work real hard on that one - it's a good, basic exercise for bringing your fingers close to the fretboard, and that's what we all need.)

Good luck! Let me know how it goes.

Kojo27

**MarkRhodes** · 03-11-2011, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kojo27

But I'd hate like hell being limited to playing such "stuff" and to impressing these fans. And call me pedantic, or whatever the word would be, but I find myself thinking there's little more to such "playing" than this.

For all we know, this guy can do lots of other things on the guitar. This *was* a competition to see if he could set a record for playing X bpm. To play that fast for that long means he is consistent and accurate--and the piece required him to play over the full range of the guitar--that's a big help whatever else he does, and his time is solid. I think he could learn to do pretty much whatever he wanted to do on a guitar. And hell, he's what, 20? 25? If he decides at 40 he wants to play jazz, I think he'll do just fine.

**JonnyPac** · 03-11-2011, 06:42 PM

You guys have any guesses of the max 16th or 8th note BPMs of classic jazz players??

How fast are Charlie Christian, Wes, Grant Green, Tal, Kessel, Martino, Hall, Metheny, Benson, and the like? It'd be nice to have some statistics.

**Kojo27** · 03-12-2011, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by markerhodes

For all we know, this guy can do lots of other things on the guitar. This *was* a competition to see if he could set a record for playing X bpm. To play that fast for that long means he is consistent and accurate--and the piece required him to play over the full range of the guitar--that's a big help whatever else he does, and his time is solid. I think he could learn to do pretty much whatever he wanted to do on a guitar. And hell, he's what, 20? 25? If he decides at 40 he wants to play jazz, I think he'll do just fine.

You're absolutely right. This is just a display of how fast he can do this stuff, and if he can do this, he can probably rise to about any other technical demands he encounters, whether in playing good music, or in taking whatever this crap is called, to some new height. Or depth - whatever.

This is just my opinion, of course. Many people like this stuff (read the comments to his video). But, to me, it's such a shame that so many are looking at music -- guitar playing in this case -- as a sort of Olympic event. "Vote for me" and "Guiness Book of World Records." Sheesh. The videos open with splash screens: "X notes per minute" (or second, or 280 bpm, etc.) And the commentators say, "You are a GOD."

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-12-2011, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Makes me think there is an upper speed limit to what is actually musical.

Yeah, but isn't that flight of the bumblebee? It does begin to sound like an actual bee at that speed.

I think they call it word painting.

**MarkRhodes** · 03-12-2011, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

You guys have any guesses of the max 16th or 8th note BPMs of classic jazz players??

How fast are Charlie Christian, Wes, Grant Green, Tal, Kessel, Martino, Hall, Metheny, Benson, and the like? It'd be nice to have some statistics.

The fastest Charlie Christian I can think of offhand is "Honeysuckle Rose" around 240. There aren't any 16th note passages. CC played a lot around 200 bpm but didn't often play 16th note passages.

Herb Ellis plays a lot of them. In the "Flintstones" vid someone recently posted of Herb and Barney Kessell, they both play some 16th note passages and I suspect the tempo is north of 240.

**max chill** · 03-13-2011, 01:41 AM

Does speed have anything to do with guitar races and NASCAR? By the way, Nashville pickers are faster than jazz or metal guitarists.

**MarkRhodes** · 03-13-2011, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by max chill

By the way, Nashville pickers are faster than jazz or metal guitarists.

They are fleet, that's for sure. And some bluegrass players are fast on acoustic guitars, which is really scary. But I think this kid going at, what, 280 bpm (?) would impress them. That's awfully damned fast, and for a long time too. That piece he plays is longer than most "hot" guitar solos.

**fumblefingers** · 03-13-2011, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by max chill

Does speed have anything to do with guitar races and NASCAR? By the way, Nashville pickers are faster than jazz or metal guitarists.

evidence please?

**Reg** · 03-13-2011, 07:02 PM

I have moments when I pick fairly quick... at least for a jazz box. Here's a tune I posted on My playing through Jazz standards thread... I just played the tune at a gig last night, basically reading through... I think the tempo is around 210 or so. I do play on faster guitars for a lot of my non-jazz gigs... but I start to go wacko... Reg

**JonnyPac** · 03-14-2011, 03:02 PM

Feels about 140 BPM the way I tend to count... Very cool playing, Reg.

**Reg** · 03-14-2011, 07:52 PM

Hey...JP... yea way off. I checked... around 184MM. I guess I need to break out my rock guitars... bring the tempo up... I'll pick a stupid tune. I really just dug that tune, never played it before gig on Sat. Nt. I really have fun on those simple groove tunes... Thanks Reg

**JonnyPac** · 03-14-2011, 09:33 PM

I'm up to 150bpm with 16ths and I can play good lines... That my top so far. Chunkin' away every day... sigh

**FatJeff** · 03-15-2011, 12:36 AM

Well, since we're all comparing weener sizes...

I'm slow. I've been doing the "SuperChops" program and I'm up to extended 8th note lines at 170bpm, with triplet bursts at that speed - however that compares with you guys.

**JonnyPac** · 03-15-2011, 02:41 AM

My pee-pee's pretty small, but I'm workin' on it. I still can swing hard at 220 or so but that's all 8ths. To get a nice mix of 8ths, triplets, and ornamental 16ths I need to stick to 210 or slower. Breaking into 16ths at 150 feels great when I land it, but it is not entirely stable yet. Jazz has too many notes...

**Reg** · 03-16-2011, 04:30 PM

One way of looking at good technique... or speed is ...
JP I'm not picking on you except that you gave some numbers... something to works with
You said 210... that's fast. When I look at 210 I mean I can cover whatever... scales, arpeggios, lets just keep it at single notes for now, anything thrown in front of me... not just certain patterns that I've practiced, but new material.... I can read down a chart and solo comfortable... be able to play what I hear. That means being aware of style, and even more important the feel ... on top of the beat, behind or ahead. You can practice almost anything and force it out even with lousy technique. It's pretty hard to play new material at fast tempos with out good technique. So where I'm going is if your trying to improve your technique and in this thread we're talking about speed... Whom do you learn from( Aristotle... give me a break please)... When I was a young lad I went to the players who could cover what I was after. There are obviously plenty of opinions of what works... I have fair chops, had them forty years ago, they don't go away, they may get rusty... when you have the ability to play at, what I consider standard jazz tempos and play effortlessly your able to hears all the subtle details that go along with the actual speed... not just getting the notes out. Some people may be gifted... I'm not one of them... I went through the bullshit studies and put in a ridiculous amount of time when I was young... but I've never really practiced since then. The less you play the longer it takes to warm up, both physically and mentally. The studies are very simple... I think I've posted them before... I'll make a video... tomorrow and show one method that works that was taught to me... you could probable make up the studies yourself if you thought about it. Reg

**JonnyPac** · 03-16-2011, 04:52 PM

Thanks Reg, I'd love a method video for your approach ("praxis" lol) of speedy 16ths in jazz soloing. A good breakdown from picking to left hand tips. Hook me up!!

**wolflen** · 03-16-2011, 05:46 PM

Reg said: " ...when you have the ability to play at, what I consider standard jazz tempos and play effortlessly your able to hears all the subtle details that go along with the actual speed... not just getting the notes out."

ahh..the term "effortlessly" ... the "zone" to some..where you are relaxed and not "trying"..

larry coryell & john mclaughlin were my speed idols...saw coryell in a small club in NY..sat in the first row..at an angle so i could see the fretboard and his fingers...his drummer and bass player laid down some groove and i watched (at that time) the fastest guitar player in the world..i had no idea what he was doing so appeared and sounded faster than it really was...mclaughlin seemed to be even faster and the music was far more complex and rose & fell with intense accuracy...

both played extremely relaxed...not trying to play fast...just playing it...

now after studying their music and techniques...much of the speed mystery is gone...and with alot of dedication and practice i am able to play some of those lines these players inspired..

but to me now..speed is a tool..not a finished product..i use it for effect and its fun to play and it is impressive to watch listeners reactions and get compliments and all that..but to some speed is the goal..

my take is..if you want to play fast..you have to want to play fast..and get that feel in you toolbox..hope that speed is not a one trick pony..

joe diorio plays some lines that are crystal clear and blurry fast..doc watson played melodic lines as fast as any shredder...the thing with these players is they played unaltered sound...no effects...the vid in this post-the effects sound faster...he is playing mostly arpeggios and tap techniques..add some delay and reverb to that perhaps a touch of compression and the notes may sound closer than they are..

we in the tech age we are easy to fool..look at our advertising..

try playing that fast on a les paul..

play well

wolf