Barring scalar fourths

[stolnd]

I’m practicing a bunch of different patterns within Jimmy Bruno’s five positions and getting tripped up over lines containing fourths

Here’s an example (please excuse my awful handwriting)



Barring that first 4th (G-D) with my pinky is making its bottom joint hurt and making it lock up getting out of the bar

If I use ring and pinky instead of barring, I’m out of position as the pattern descends

Am I missing an obvious convenience here or do I chalk it up to pinky strength/incorrect technique? Would you all finger this differently?

I’m willing to endure soreness as my left hand gets stronger but it feels like I’m doing something wrong here

[pcjazz]

I’m practicing a bunch of different patterns within Jimmy Bruno’s five positions and getting tripped up over lines containing fourths

Here’s an example (please excuse my awful handwriting)



Barring that first 4th (G-D) with my pinky is making its bottom joint hurt and making it lock up getting out of the bar

If I use ring and pinky instead of barring, I’m out of position as the pattern descends

Am I missing an obvious convenience here or do I chalk it up to pinky strength/incorrect technique? Would you all finger this differently?

I’m willing to endure soreness as my left hand gets stronger but it feels like I’m doing something wrong here

The pinky bar in your diagram is C#-F#, not G-D. Try the Van Eps technique of stopping two strings with the tip of one finger instead of a bar. If you must use a bar, use as light a touch as will sound the notes: too much pressure hurts. And since you are sounding each note separately try fingering them in sequece without a bar.

[stolnd]

And since you are sounding each note separately try fingering them in sequece without a bar.

Does this mean lifting the pinky up from string 1 and placing it on string 2, like doing a quick little “jump” with the same finger?

[pamosmusic]

Using two fingers is normal and good and you should practice it. Scott Tenant calls this “walking fingers” and makes it a normal part of a left hand warmup. But you also want to have that barre if you need it

One thing that helps is to make sure you pop the barre down at the small joint. I call it The Inchworm. The wrist should stay mostly straight. So it seems like a weird move but it’s a smaller quicker move and healthier for your playing position.

What a lot of people do is leave the finger straight and push the palm up to rotate the whole hand for the barre. Not great for the wrist and a much bigger movement that won’t happen as quickly and will tire your hand and wrist out.

[stolnd]

What a lot of people do is leave the finger straight and push the palm up to rotate the whole hand for the barre.

I think this is part of my problem. I think I was bowing my entire finger

I just tried the “inchworm” thing, keeping my pinky curled a bit rather than completely straight and focusing on that top joint to bar and it isn’t painful

I’m gonna check out the Scott Tenant and Van Eps techniques next

Thank you guys!

[pamosmusic]

I think this is part of my problem. I think I was bowing my entire finger

I just tried the “inchworm” thing, keeping my pinky curled a bit rather than completely straight and focusing on that top joint to bar and it isn’t painful

Voila

[pamosmusic]

If you have more of a violin pronated thing going on in the left hand, the inchworm might be weird, but then you’re also going to be probably using the pinkie less altogether and generally a bit less position oriented.

And the Scott Tenant book is called Pumping Nylon. The left hand stuff is great for electric guitar too … IF …

1. You're playing with a classical left hand as opposed to that more third finger heavy pronated left hand.

2. you can keep your hand relaxed while you do the exercises. You might need to be creative to make the exercises simple enough to do this. This part is super important. If you have tension in your hand while working through some of the heavier exercises you will hurt yourself.

Pumping Nylon is an excellent book but VERY MUCH a prescription drug. Use as directed, only as long aa required to achieve the desired result, and under the supervision of an expert.

[AllanAllen]

I’d probably slide my ring finger up if I was playing a line that did that.

[stolnd]

The pinky bar in your diagram is C#-F#, not G-D.

I spend ten minutes staring at this stupid thing going “this looks good…” and I still screwed it up

Gotta up my tab game

Fixed here

[rpjazzguitar]

I find the G to D barre to feel natural with the pinkie. I find the F to C barre with the middle finger to be a bit unnatural.

So, Jimmy's patterns aside for the moment, I'd probably play the first three notes in XII (12th fret) then shift my hand to X for the next three.

At that point, you have the pinkie on the F and the next note is C. I'd shift back to XII and play the C with my middle finger.

The key point is to recognize how fast the position shifts can be (I learned that from the Segovia scales, iirc).

[sgcim]

Peter Sprague doesn't believe in barring any scalar fourths. He always uses two different fingers to play two consecutive fourths. His reason for doing that is because it wouldn't sound like his idol, John Coltrane.

[James W]

If you have more of a violin pronated thing going on in the left hand, the inchworm might be weird, but then you’re also going to be probably using the pinkie less altogether and generally a bit less position oriented.

And the Scott Tenant book is called Pumping Nylon. The left hand stuff is great for electric guitar too … IF …

1. You're playing with a classical left hand as opposed to that more third finger heavy pronated left hand.

2. you can keep your hand relaxed while you do the exercises. You might need to be creative to make the exercises simple enough to do this. This part is super important. If you have tension in your hand while working through some of the heavier exercises you will hurt yourself.

Pumping Nylon is an excellent book but VERY MUCH a prescription drug. Use as directed, only as long aa required to achieve the desired result, and under the supervision of an expert.

Second this about Pumping Nylon. Except in my case 'only as long as required to achieve desired result' means every single day, exactly six minutes of warming up the left hand. But yeah, you need to be relaxed while doing it.

[pamosmusic]

Second this about Pumping Nylon. Except in my case 'only as long as required to achieve desired result' means every single day, exactly six minutes of warming up the left hand. But yeah, you need to be relaxed while doing it.

If the desired effect is to have half the chops of Scott Tenant then I guess it never ends.

What do you use from the left hand exercises?

[ragman1]

You're not going to like this (you should but you won't). If it hurts don't play it, find another way. Seriously.

Why torture yourself? Use whatever comes naturally, use what works. There are lots of ways to play the same lines.

If you have to play those exact lines at all, of course.

[ragman1]

If you keep playing the same line over and over, the fingering which is natural to you will show itself. Use that. It may not even be the same one every time, either.

Whatever works.

[James W]

If the desired effect is to have half the chops of Scott Tenant then I guess it never ends.

What do you use from the left hand exercises?

Only two. Firstly the triplet slurs on page 51 which he says 'if you only have time for one left-hand exercise, do this one'. I do each finger combination for 30 seconds so it takes 3 minutes. Then I do the fixed finger exercise on page 53, again each combination for 30 seconds meaning it takes 3 minutes. I note that Pasquale Grasso does a version of this in one of his My Music Masterclass videos.

[ragman1]

Are you playing those lines in three-note bursts or four-note bursts? Because that makes a difference.

Are they supposed to be triplets or groups of four? They're written in triplets but are you playing them as triplets?

To some extent you'll use the fingers that produce the right emphasis. At least, I did. If they're triplets then you want a strong note on the first one each time.

I don't play this kind of stuff anyway, I don't like it.

[Mick-7]

I’m practicing a bunch of different patterns within Jimmy Bruno’s five positions and getting tripped up over lines containing fourths

Barring that first 4th (G-D) with my pinky is making its bottom joint hurt and making it lock up getting out of the bar.

If I use ring and pinky instead of barring, I’m out of position as the pattern descends

Am I missing an obvious convenience here or do I chalk it up to pinky strength/incorrect technique? Would you all finger this differently?

I’m willing to endure soreness as my left hand gets stronger but it feels like I’m doing something wrong here

Nothing you ever play should hurt (except maybe your ego), if it does, you're doing it wrong. The trick is to roll your finger down to the lower string (when descending) or up to the higher string (when ascending). If playing a descending phrase with the pinky, that would mean playing the note on the high E string with the pad of the 1st finger joint, and playing the lower note of the B string with the tip of the finger, and reverse that movement if going from a lower to higher string - this should entail only a slight movement of the hand.

Peter Sprague doesn't believe in barring any scalar fourths. He always uses two different fingers to play two consecutive fourths. His reason for doing that is because it wouldn't sound like his idol, John Coltrane.

I didn't know that John Coltrane played guitar.

[ragman1]

Peter Sprague doesn't believe in barring any scalar fourths. He always uses two different fingers

There you go, see. No one way to do this stuff. What I'm saying.

No one place to do it, either.

[Christian Miller]

Separate fingers can be clearer for articulation and this can be worth the effort. But despite practicing this for ages I still bar.

Ah well, probably more important things to worry about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ragman1]

I barred for some and separated for others. As I said before, if they're triplets they should sound like it. The fourths cover the end/beginning of the triplet groups - G/D, F/C, E/B, D/A, etc.

If one isn't careful it can just sound like ongoing eighth notes.

[GuyBoden]

I've never played a barre chord since playing in a 1970-80's Punk Rock band.

[ragman1]

Actually it depends on the strings. 1st and 2nd strings are together, like C/G, Bb/F, etc. 2nd and 3rd they're separated, 3rd and 4th they're together, and so on.

That would determine a lot of the fingering in itself.

[kris]

I don"t see a problem in that... I play as it is written.

[Christian Miller]

I've never played a barre chord since playing in a 1970-80's Punk Rock band.

I still don’t like F truth be told


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk