Pat Metheny Octave Displaced diminished dominant lick, inside/outside

[Christian Miller]

Great Filter - Wikipedia


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[Christian Miller]

"The main great filter," what is that referring to? I've never heard that phrase before.

I almost forgot Orange Dwarf stars in my previous post. They are cooler than our sun but are stable and last 17 to 70 billion years, and are about 12% of Milky Way stars. Add that to the 5 to 7 percent that are yellow dwarf stars, like our Sun, and that means at least 19% of the stars in the Milky Way 'could' theoretically support life. That's almost 20 percent. That's not too shabby a number in this scenario.

I agree with what I heard a physicist say, that "if an alien species had mastered interstellar travel, and had visited Earth, they would be so much more advanced than us that they could take over our world and we wouldn't even know it." That's a pretty sobering thought. I would tend to agree though. There's nowhere out in deep space where you can make a 'pit stop' if you need to fix a flat, or change your oil filter, lol, or do your routine maintenance on your spaceship. If you really think about the HUGE technological challenges traveling those HUGE light-year distances would entail, and the enormous 'good percentage of the speed of light' speeds that would have to be achieved to make it practical, any species that had mastered that would be even more ahead of us technologically than we are ahead of people living in biblical times. Meaning, their technology would appear as if it were magic to us, real magic.

Yeah the K types are interesting. I have heard it argued that they could harbour planets that are super habitable - ie more habitable than earth.

Re great filter
Great Filter - Wikipedia


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[Christian Miller]

Nb I said that finding non intelligent life is common but not finding intelligent life means the Great Filter(s) is behind us. Actually that’s a logical fallacy. It may mean that - it may not. Confirming Martian life would actually raise the chance that the GF is ahead of us.

Finding evidence of other complex life would be very worrying for us from a statistical perspective.


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[Mick-7]

Nb I said that finding non intelligent life is common but not finding intelligent life means the Great Filter(s) is behind us. Actually that’s a logical fallacy. It may mean that - it may not. Confirming Martian life would actually raise the chance that the GF is ahead of us.

Finding evidence of other complex life would be very worrying for us from a statistical perspective.

Within detection of our sensors, you mean? Because in an infinite universe, I'd say it's a given.

And have you noticed that it's usually assumed they'd be as predatory as human beings are? - come and enslave us, eat us, etc. I think it's a juvenile attitude, a product of human xenophobia - but of course makes for a good sci-fi story.

[Christian Miller]

Within detection of our sensors, you mean? Because in an infinite universe, I'd say it's a given.

In an infinite universe (if it be such and we have no reason to think otherwise at present ) it’s not only a dead certainty but a dead certainty an infinite number of times. Thing is infinity is infinitely larger than the observable universe, right? Or the universe we can reasonably communicate with or reach in some way.

So the question becomes- exactly how astronomical are the odds? Is it one per 100 light years squared deal? Is it a one in a galaxy deal? Or one in a galactic cluster deal? Rarer? Once a supercluster? Once every 10 billion light years?

And in the latter case, would cosmic acceleration whisk it away before we had a chance to communicate?

Even across our galaxy we wouldn’t be having a conversation. I get annoyed when I have to hold the line for ten minutes, let alone ten thousand years.

Dunno. It’s worth noting that the number of star systems goes up by the cube near to the earth , so there’s a LOT of stars within 1000ly compared to 100ly. Same for galaxies.

It’s also worth noting how small SETI’s reach is and it’s questionable whether ET would be using analogue radio anyway.

A lot of unknowns. It’s all speculation really.

And have you noticed that it's usually assumed they'd be as predatory as human beings are? - come and enslave us, eat us, etc. I think it's a juvenile attitude, a product of human xenophobia - but of course makes for a good sci-fi story.

Yeah, sure…

That’s not the reason it would be an issue btw. Here’s some cartoon birds to explain it, which is how I learned about it.

If we found extant intelligent life that would actually be OK from the Great Filter perspective.

I mean when you talk about Dark Forest, zoo hypothesis etc at that point it gets in science fiction, yadda yadda. Who knows? It seems unlikely they’d be at the same level of development as us. Maybe we’d be bugs of them. But I think we are quite respectful of potential Martian bugs - at least NASA is.

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[Mick-7]

In an infinite universe (if it be such and we have no reason to think otherwise at present ) it’s not only a dead certainty but a dead certainty an infinite number of times. Thing is infinity is infinitely larger than the observable universe, right? Or the universe we can reasonably communicate with or reach in some way.

So the question becomes- how astronomical are the odds? Is it one per 100 light years squared deal? Is it a one in a galaxy deal? Or one in a galactic cluster deal? Rarer? Once a supercluster? Once every 100 billion light years?

Yes, well, our hypotheses are of course based on our perceptive ability, how sensitive are our telescopic and light sensors, etc., so true infinity will not be needed to stump us. And is our big bang universe just a bubble in an infinitely larger multi-verse, etc. The mind boggles....

There is also a debate re: we'd even be able to recognize intelligent life that is unlike us, our anthropomorphic attitude can get in the way.

[Mick-7]

That "Great Filters" video is replete with psychologically biased and unscientific ideas, starting with the proposition that survival of a species depends on continual expansion and colonization.

The Great Filters phobia argument sounds like something a religious fundamentalist would propose. I did mention the filter #2 hypothesis earlier, I said: "There is also the pessimistic argument that the reason we've found no sign of advanced ET civilizations is that those civilizations who've developed nuclear energy, AI, etc., are very likely to have committed technological suicide."

[wolflen]

That "Great Filters" video is replete with psychologically biased and unscientific ideas, starting with the proposition that survival of a species depends on continual expansion and colonization.

The Great Filters phobia argument sounds like something a religious fundamentalist would propose. I did mention the filter #2 hypothesis earlier, I said: "There is also the pessimistic argument that the reason we've found no sign of advanced ET civilizations is that those civilizations who've developed nuclear energy, AI, etc., are very likely to have committed technological suicide."

The paradox symbol of ying/yang is our mechanics as humans. We have capabilities of looking into deep space and developing medical cures..and yet..the planet is covered with local wars and lack of running water in some areas in "undeveloped" countries.

so to me..I embrace the paradox...I think there is life "out there" and then .. Im sure we are alone!

Ahh..the 'Big Bang Theory" is just that..much like every legal document you have ever read claiming "..pricing and content are subject to change without notice.."

Yes its the sad and frighting realization--"Who's minding the store?.."

[Mick-7]

The paradox symbol of ying/yang is our mechanics as humans. We have capabilities of looking into deep space and developing medical cures..and yet..the planet is covered with local wars and lack of running water in some areas in "undeveloped" countries.

so to me..I embrace the paradox...I think there is life "out there" and then .. Im sure we are alone!

Ahh..the 'Big Bang Theory" is just that..much like every legal document you have ever read claiming "..pricing and content are subject to change without notice.."

Yes its the sad and frighting realization--"Who's minding the store?.."

Yes sir, and we project our own aberrant psychology into our speculation about ET's, as in the video, "intelligent species will deplete and despoil their planet's environment and have to go into space to find other planets to deplete and despoil." Hello!, that's not a sign of intelligence!

Who put the "sapiens" in homo sapiens? (sapien = wise in Latin), it should be homo "superbia," the latin word for hubristic/arrogant.

[Christian Miller]

That "Great Filters" video is replete with psychologically biased and unscientific ideas, starting with the proposition that survival of a species depends on continual expansion and colonization.

It's been a while since I watched it, but I'll just recount the Fermi paradox argument as I understand it.

1) It takes a relatively small amount of time for a species capable of interstellar travel to spread across the galaxy even at very slow speeds
2) We don't see anyone wot has done it
3) Where is everybody?
4) Make YouTube videos with increasingly outlandish suggestions as to why.
5)... Profit!

Yeah, so taking issue with 1) is quite reasonable. It is quite a 'manifest destiny' sort of idea. Wagon trains to the stars and so on. And TBF you do hear the tech bros coming out with a lot of this stuff.

I don't actually see any compelling reason for an intelligent species to undertake interstellar travel. It's not like terrestrial colonialism, where the pay offs were absolutely huge for the colonisers. It's really really energy intensive, and takes a really long time on a human timescale for what exactly? Everything I know about the history of Earth and the nature of exoplanets etc seems to suggest finding a second Earth within a reasonable distance is remote in the extreme.

I think Star Wars and Star Trek has given everyone unrealistic expectations ...

Even Earth is only habitable to humans for a fraction of its lifetime. A billion years ago there was nothing to eat and we couldn't breathe the air. In a billion years, ditto. A billion more and the Earth will be much like Venus (might this have already happened to Venus? That's a question...)

Even if we found a planet exactly like Earth the biochemistry of its inhabitants might be incompatible, or we might all die from some pathogen utterly unknown to our immune systems. And so on.

But can one rule out the expansion of intelligent species across the galaxy over millions of year? No. Nothing forbids it in physics, it depends whether or not intelligent species such as our must continue to expand, or naturally reaches a limit and stabilises. But that itself is given as a possible Fermi Paradox solution.

There is the Universal Paperclips/Von Neumann Machine type of thing, where an intelligent artificial species behaves like a virus, where all of the above is moot point... Can't rule it out. Perhaps our consciousnesses might all be downloaded into such entities. It's all a bit sci-fi though.

You have other arguments like the Freeman Dyson's famous suggestion that those looking for ETI should look for 'dyson spheres', where a civilisation encloses its own star in order to completely harness its energy, which people take seriously, but I have heard suggested may have actually been a bit of joke aimed at such neo-Malthusian predictions of growth such as the Kardhishev scale and so on. Dyson said it was a joke himself.

But when you get into this stuff it's all speculation within the boundaries of what's strictly possible within physics. Really, we have no idea. And these ideas mostly come from an era of huge growth and expansion - the twentieth century.

It does look like population growth is levelling off, for example, which has its own societal implications.

[Mick-7]

But can one rule out the expansion of intelligent species across the galaxy over millions of year? No. Nothing forbids it in physics, it depends whether or not intelligent species such as our must continue to expand, or naturally reaches a limit and stabilises. But that itself is given as a possible Fermi Paradox solution.

There is the Universal Paperclips/Von Neumann Machine type of thing, where an intelligent artificial species behaves like a virus, where all of the above is moot point... Can't rule it out. Perhaps our consciousnesses might all be downloaded into such entities. It's all a bit sci-fi though.

Frank Tipler's take on that, which I mentioned earlier (post #20), was not that they would behave like a virus, but that intelligent species, being naturally curious, would want to explore the universe, and would therefore send out AI robots (he said self-replicating) for exploration purposes, and since we've never seen any, intelligent ET's do not exist (anywhere near us anyway).

More on that here: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1605.09187

[Christian Miller]

Frank Tipler's take on that, which I mentioned earlier (post #20), was not that they would behave like a virus, but that intelligent species, being naturally curious, would want to explore the universe, and would therefore send out AI robots (he said self-replicating) for exploration purposes, and since we've never seen any, intelligent ET's do not exist (anywhere near us anyway).

More on that here: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1605.09187

Yeah, it does seem likely that it would be robots (for want of a better word) that would undertake interstellar travel. After all, it has worked well for us within the solar system. We can assume biological ETI would do the same.

OTOH just because the laws of physics appear to permit something doesn't mean there's something inevitable about it. Interstellar travel is hard and long, even for machines. It's really not on the horizon for us in the near future, and it has been interesting seeing the basic hurdles something relatively humble like Breakthrough Starshot has encountered. Of course we can't rule it out over the long term, but I think when we go to the long term it becomes hard to talk about anything.

If we spotted unambiguous evidence of ETI a few hundred light years out.. that would be a tragic thing in a way - to try communicate and then wait centuries for an answer that might never come? How does that even look as on a societal level?

I think the sheer scale of the galaxy makes it very hard to conceptualise things like this. It's quite glib in a way to just handwave it away with 'err.. robots' even though that does seem the most likely way we could go to other stars.

[rictroll]

So how how are the octave displacements going?

[wolflen]

So how how are the octave displacements going?

very well actually..we have sent AI passengers to Mars to test drive the conditions..
we should be ready for advanced guitar and displaced octave methods in the next century..
that is..giving the current projections are correct..

in the meantime..practice Giant Steps in 12 keys @320BPM

[Mick-7]

Then again, it's hardly surprising that a thread entitled: "Octave Displaced diminished dominant lick, inside/outside" drifted off into the ether.

[AdroitMage]

AI generated content is fairly obvious to anyone who has seen much of it - the terminology, use of grammar, etc. School teachers (like Mr. Beaumont) in particular can usually spot it immediately, so now-a-days school kids will rewrite it, try to dumb it down a bit, misspell a few words, etc., to evade detection.

And by the way, ChatGPT and similar apps are not actually AI, they merely parse language content (albeit a great deal of it). They have no more understanding of its meaning than the average parrot does of the phrases it repeats.

So what, is Mr. Beaumont now the local AI police around here now, "busting" all the posts that use AI assistance? Is that what we really need around here?

[wolflen]

[QUOTE=AdroitMage;

Is that what we really need around here?[/QUOTE]

Hmmm..lets see..what we really need..Perhaps a dimly lit bar with red leather booths that serve rich stews and crusty homemade bread with sweet butter and various live combos playing 30's/40's standards and some Julie London style singers doing various arrangements of "Is that all there is?"

Yes..considering today's world events...I find this to be a very good start.

Sure beats the hell out of How Octave displacement will help us find ET & Co

[Christian Miller]

So what, is Mr. Beaumont now the local AI police around here now, "busting" all the posts that use AI assistance? Is that what we really need around here?

It is exactly what we need around here.


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[jameslovestal]

So what, is Mr. Beaumont now the local AI police around here now, "busting" all the posts that use AI assistance? Is that what we really need around here?

Unlike you, Mr. Beaumont, isn't a phony.

Post a video of you playing. Still waiting.

[mr. beaumont]

So what, is Mr. Beaumont now the local AI police around here now, "busting" all the posts that use AI assistance? Is that what we really need around here?

Mr. Beaumont hasn't been posting much lately, so I doubt he has much interest in being the AI police.

[jameslovestal]

Mr. Beaumont hasn't been posting much lately, so I doubt he has much interest in being the AI police.

I'm sure you have been very busy, going out protesting.

Just pulling your leg, but, as you know, there is a lot going on in your area. Playing more jazz is what I recommend. Stay safe.

[AdroitMage]

Within detection of our sensors, you mean? Because in an infinite universe, I'd say it's a given.

And have you noticed that it's usually assumed they'd be as predatory as human beings are? - come and enslave us, eat us, etc. I think it's a juvenile attitude, a product of human xenophobia - but of course makes for a good sci-fi story.

Oh, okay so the aliens come here and they start eating humans. How primal and gross .

[Tal_175]

It does look like population growth is levelling off, for example, which has its own societal implications.

I blame that to the declining alcohol consumption among the new generation and the whole sober-curious non-sense. Bad decision making under the influence of alcohol has been the driving force of our species.

[Christian Miller]

I blame that to the declining alcohol consumption among the new generation and the whole sober-curious non-sense. Bad decision making under the influence of alcohol has been the driving force of our species.

I thought that was just the Brits?

[Aiq]

Wow, AI, Musk, computer antichrist, aliens…

Anyway, nice riff demo @jzucker