enclosures fingerings in bebop

[rodolfoguitarra]

Hi everyone

I used three different fingerings for the same lick. Take a look at the enclosures:

1. It’s easier to visualize since all the notes of the enclosure are on the same string. It seems more logical, like a piano, but you have to change position.
2. One note of the enclosure is on one string, while the others are on another. It seens odd to visualize.
3. Same as the last one.

My question is: when practicing isolated enclosures, do you tend to practice all the possibilities? I tend to stick with the first one in this situation, but when the enclosure is part of a larger phrase, it’s better to use the other options. What are your thoughts?

[AllanAllen]

I play with things until I find a way that is easy and stick with that. In the process I end up finding alternate ways that come in handy later, but my goal is to have easy things to play so I can free up headspace. Also, people hear notes, they don't hear difficult fingerings, no use making things harder than it has to be.

[Groyniad]

with the guitar - as opposed to say sax or piano - one of the biggest challenges is not allowing learned position-fingering to dictate how you phrase. the positions have nothing at all to do with phrasing - just to do with 'seeing' where the notes are. Best thing I've done in years is take lessons from sax players on this - e.g. 'saxologic' on YouTube has my favourite ever lesson - and its about how to phrase a single grooy Parker line so as to make it sound as good as it should. it's the facts about where the slurs need to go that have to determine the fingerings you use. if they don't you can easily sound like a type-writer for all your trouble.

[dasein]

Hi everyone

I used three different fingerings for the same lick. Take a look at the enclosures:

1. It’s easier to visualize since all the notes of the enclosure are on the same string. It seems more logical, like a piano, but you have to change position.
2. One note of the enclosure is on one string, while the others are on another. It seens odd to visualize.
3. Same as the last one.

My question is: when practicing isolated enclosures, do you tend to practice all the possibilities? I tend to stick with the first one in this situation, but when the enclosure is part of a larger phrase, it’s better to use the other options. What are your thoughts?

There are different schools of thoughts on this, but I personally would do #1, with #3 as an alternative. I wouldn't play #2 at all.

This is how I'm ultimately thinking of the line. I've added a pickup note to it to make it even more explicit:





Whenever possible, I'm trying to pick the off-beats and slur into the downbeats. Sometimes there's truly no good way of playing a line that way, but that's what I'm shooting for.

#1 feels the most natural. #3 works, you just have a lot of notes on one string (which can be a good thing to practice).

#2 doesn't work, because you're switching strings from the A to the Ab. One possibility is to use a "hammer on from nowhere" like Metheny does. But that's not a natural part of my playing.

One of the great myths of guitar playing is that all the ways to finger a line are functionally identical. That might be true if you pick every note, use alternate picking, and your string switching skills are flawless. But once you start adding articulation, different fingerings can allow for very different sounds.

[PMB]

I'd also go for option #1. The enclosure itself is defined by two chromatic notes above - A & Ab - and one below - F# and it's easiest to play this on a single string. As dasein pointed out, it helps facilitate slurring from weak to strong beats.

Also, as a general rule, notes that are out of position and part of a longer chromatic line are best given over to the 4th finger when descending and 1st finger ascending as you're moving into (#1) rather than away from (#2) the centre of activity.

[Christian Miller]

I would use 2


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[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I would use 2


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Your 2 cents from three finger perspective?

[GuyBoden]

I've found that using only one string is very good for short enclosure phrases, but not for longer enclosure phrases.
(Using only one string is too much shifting for my style, but maybe not for you.)

[Christian Miller]

Your 2 cents from three finger perspective?

Same for four fingers.

For three, slide B to Bb, hammer F# to G

Let the hand move

It depends how you are phrasing it. You may want to slide into Ab in which case fingerings changes to more like 1


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[princeplanet]

I can use all 3, depending on what comes next.

[pamosmusic]

I’d use all three … maybe like … 60/30/10 for one, three, and two respectively?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I can use all 3, depending on what comes next.

…and what came before.

[pauln]

The question is about fingering, but the question and examples don't indicate fingering; they indicate the string/fret locations without indicating which finger to use (see recent thread(s) on the three vs four fingers discussions).

I use four fingers, here's how I would see the most likely possibilities.
Number is finger used (1-4)
1] 321 4312
2] 4321 423
3] 43211 44

with dasein's pickup note
1] 1321 4312
2] 24321 423
3] 243211 44

Notice the finger that ends the line
1] finger 2
2] finger 3
3] finger 4

I don't have a preference because part of that would be which ending finger might be best for setting up the next phrase or line. Long ago I delegated the formulation of fingering and picking solutions to my hands, so that I never think about it.

I told my left hand that it would be responsible for determining fingering solutions and selecting the best one to execute the sound of the idea in my mind's ear - I would "telepathically" send it that sound and it would learn to find it and execute it. The only rule (or constraint) was to use four fingers. Likewise I told my right hand it was on its own with the only rule to do whatever was necessary to fulfill the left hand's fingering solution.

Amazingly, this has worked very well; the result is that I never think about the mechanics , alternate vs economy, start with an up or down stroke, etc. All I think about is what I want to hear it sound like, and both hands make it happen (after decades of practice and listening).

[princeplanet]

…and what came before.

Yes! So many ways to get around lines with lots of enclosures (which I do a lot of).
I do pity the 3 finger guys who need to find ways to get around these ideas, but then, they're usually clever enough to avoid too many enclosures and shoot for other things instead...

[pauln]

Yes! So many ways to get around lines with lots of enclosures (which I do a lot of).
I do pity the 3 finger guys who need to find ways to get around these ideas, but then, they're usually clever enough to avoid too many enclosures and shoot for other things instead...

Enclosures allow slurs... maybe the 3 finger guys employ more slurs making their enclosures (but 4 finger guys hear that as fewer proper enclosures, more slurs)?

[princeplanet]

Enclosures allow slurs... maybe the 3 finger guys employ more slurs making their enclosures (but 4 finger guys hear that as fewer proper enclosures, more slurs)?

Dunno, maybe we should ask the 3F guys about their take on this?

[pamosmusic]

Enclosures allow slurs... maybe the 3 finger guys employ more slurs making their enclosures (but 4 finger guys hear that as fewer proper enclosures, more slurs)?

Why would slurs not be proper enclosures?

[Christian Miller]

Dunno, maybe we should ask the 3F guys about their take on this?

Doesn’t matter how many fingers you use, slurring enclosures/neighbour is common to jazz guitar. It comes from horn phrasing. Usually it’s a slur from the upbeat.

If you haven’t practiced this sort of thing, you should. Helps with swing feel and everyone does it.

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[pauln]

Why would slurs not be proper enclosures?

Sorry, I used "proper" as a distinguishing term... not as a contrast to "wrong" but like proper motion in astrophysics... as isolation by definition from other similar definitions.
Proper motion is the astrometric measure of the observed changes in the apparent places of stars or other celestial objects in the sky, as seen from the center of mass of the Solar System, compared to the abstract background of the more distant stars.

[pamosmusic]

Sorry, I used "proper" as a distinguishing term... not as a contrast to "wrong" but like proper motion in astrophysics... as isolation by definition from other similar definitions.
Proper motion is the astrometric measure of the observed changes in the apparent places of stars or other celestial objects in the sky, as seen from the center of mass of the Solar System, compared to the abstract background of the more distant stars.

This is not helpful

[pamosmusic]

because …

Doesn’t matter how many fingers you use, slurring enclosures/neighbour is common to jazz guitar. It comes from horn phrasing. Usually it’s a slur from the upbeat.

If you haven’t practiced this sort of thing, you should. Helps with swing feel and everyone does it.

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[pauln]

This is not helpful

Maybe Christian will chime in... he studied astro-cosmo-something...
In the mean time...

[rpjazzguitar]

Hi everyone

I used th?

I can't open the link and I can't figure out why not. Any suggestions?

[pauln]

I can't open the link and I can't figure out why not. Any suggestions?

I've seen that one come and go a few times, it's not there now...
The last couple of days I've seen avatars and images come and go, formatting of posts that look right in preview lose all sense of "new line" returns, paragraph spacing, etc. I thought it was my machine but I am still seeing some of it after re-boot. Sometimes just waiting a few minutes the images restore.

Like right now just after posting the above, the images in the op's post are back.