Failure and weakness

[pamosmusic]

Controversial opinion:

Maybe we take the whole “simple is best” thing with comping a little too far? Maybe because we’d rather not work on it?

I think we usually mean to say that simple VOICINGS are better. And maybe that playing sparse is good. But there’s a lot of rhythmic complexity and interest in good comping. A lot of nice voice leading in, say, Freddie Greens that might qualify as “complex.”

I don’t know.

An additional thought for the above.

The first two choruses are the soloists job, the rest are the job of the band.

If everyone on the gig is taking two choruses, it probably doesn’t much matter what’s going on in the accompaniment beyond good time and outlining the form. But if the soloist wants to stretch out at all, then there just has to be considerable input from the rhythm section. The longer a solo goes, the more responsibility the rhythm section has to drive it.

So that’s where I feel like the comping chops and stuff are kind of indispensable. Doesn’t have to be (probably shouldn’t be) big complex voicings but rhythmic sensibility and being able to move and pedal and stuff.

One of the worst feelings in the music business is tearing up the last eight bars of your second chorus and rounding in for a third and having nobody come with you. It’s the musical equivalent of biting into chicken at a snappy restaurant and it being cold.

[AllanAllen]

Doesn’t have to be (probably shouldn’t be) big complex voicings but rhythmic sensibility and being able to move and pedal and stuff.

This is what I consider simple and basic comping, the good stuff, playing with the song. If the guy is concerned with 6 note harmonic substitutions and polyrhythms he’s not thinking about the right thing. At least, in any situation I want to play in. Or listen to.

Even Ornette Coleman’s stuff isn’t that out there with comping.

By the way, I’m agreeing with you but also saying you’re stuff is what I mean by simple
comping.

Listen to the records, not what the YouTubers teach.

[pamosmusic]

This is what I consider simple and basic comping, the good stuff, playing with the song. If the guy is concerned with 6 note harmonic substitutions and polyrhythms he’s not thinking about the right thing. At least, in any situation I want to play in. Or listen to.

Polyrhythms actually aren’t all that uncommon in short bursts — or maybe cross rhythm is the appropriate word.

As for the huge voicings and crazy subs and stuff, I don’t know if I hear that very much from people. It feels like a bit of a strawman. Gilad Hekselman does his “Big Chord” series on Patreon, but his thing is very idiosyncratic, and the nature of it being a specific series sort of implies to me that he understands those chords to be a particular kind of vibe.

By the way, I’m agreeing with you but also saying you’re stuff is what I mean by simple comping.

So I guess I’m just saying that if moving chords, a melody line, interesting rhythm, cross rhythms, pedaling, etc is simple, then I don’t think I ever really hear people advocating for “complex” (with a notable exception I will leave to your imagination).

It’s definitely a message that people get when they’re sort of starting out … kind of like “exotic scales equals jazz” but I don’t think that means there are serious players and educators out there pushing that stuff.

Listen to the records, not what the YouTubers teach.

For sure. And I think be realistic about what you’re hearing. Being simple for sure, being tasteful always, but being ready to respond in those impactful moments too.

And most YouTubers I think gear toward beginners these days and are big on starting simple. I think part of the problem is that they don’t always have a way forward after “four on the floor, shell voicings.” Not that I do either, mind you. Though I do think about it a lot. For myself as much as for students.

Even Ornette Coleman’s stuff isn’t that out there with comping.

That would definitely depend on the Ornette. And of course lots of it with no chording instrument at all.

[AllanAllen]

No, the two Ornette songs I heard yesterday solidly define everything he’s ever done.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

An additional thought for the above.

The first two choruses are the soloists job, the rest are the job of the band.

If everyone on the gig is taking two choruses, it probably doesn’t much matter what’s going on in the accompaniment beyond good time and outlining the form. But if the soloist wants to stretch out at all, then there just has to be considerable input from the rhythm section. The longer a solo goes, the more responsibility the rhythm section has to drive it.

So that’s where I feel like the comping chops and stuff are kind of indispensable. Doesn’t have to be (probably shouldn’t be) big complex voicings but rhythmic sensibility and being able to move and pedal and stuff.

One of the worst feelings in the music business is tearing up the last eight bars of your second chorus and rounding in for a third and having nobody come with you. It’s the musical equivalent of biting into chicken at a snappy restaurant and it being cold.

Think big-band horn sections for comping. Listen to drummers a lot. React to drummers when playing. Practice cross-rhythms systematically until they are in your flesh and bones. Listen to African music, latin, funk, reggae a lot. Listen to blues, listen to how the collective improvisation interacts. I am starting to realize how listening to this album affected my "rhythmic sensibility":

[Christian Miller]

This is what I consider simple and basic comping, the good stuff, playing with the song. If the guy is concerned with 6 note harmonic substitutions and polyrhythms he’s not thinking about the right thing. At least, in any situation I want to play in. Or listen to.

Even Ornette Coleman’s stuff isn’t that out there with comping.

By the way, I’m agreeing with you but also saying you’re stuff is what I mean by simple
comping.

Listen to the records, not what the YouTubers teach.

Yeah we YouTubers are just the worst haha.

The problem is living in an information rich world. What you actually need as a beginner is a relatively small amount of helpful information you apply consistently.

the challenge as a more advanced musician is staying the course and not getting side tracked by shiny stuff.

This even applies to the music itself. Older musicians had less access. We listen very widely, but it’s possible they may have listened more deeply? Plenty of stories about that one album that were listened to again and again until the grooves wore out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Peter C]

In reference to a post here, I was having a beer one day with a real career lion tamer when I noticed that he had a chunk missing out of one of his thighs (was wearing shorts). He told me it was from a mishap at a circus show years ago in the US; shit happens. Mofo had no fear of anything or anybody. I'd probably stick with jazz guitar.