Guild X-500, 700 - CES Alternitive?

[SierraTango]

Lately I've been considering adding a CES type instrument to the herd. With L-5 CES prices through the roof these days, I've been reminded of the X-500 (laminated) and X-700 (solid) Guild archtops circa 1970-80's. Of course, not the cache or Wow factor of the Gibson, but I'm not concerned with that. I've always felt the Guild line was totally under rated and overlooked. I'm also aware of the Heritage similar models which seem to be undervalued.

I've had experiences with both builders. I bought a Heritage Golden Eagle from Jay Wolfe back in the 90's and loved it. I sold it to buy a Parker Fly which I needed for gigging. I've also owned a 92 Guild AA which was a superb guitar, sold it when I obtained my Bob built 90 Cremona,

I know the Guild is not a "Holy Grail", anyone here giging or working with a X-500 or X-700?

Cheers!

[Rickco]

theres a super eagle (or was) here, incredible deal equal to the Gibson or Guild in quality. If I wasnt overstocked I would have bought it immediately. I think theres some really good buys available right now.

[deacon Mark]

I would get a Heritage Super eagle or Golden E. The one here listed looks great price excellent but not everyone handles 18 inch body well. Heritage guitars way undervalued.

[Stringswinger]

Both Guild and Heritage make (made?) excellent archtops. Neither will get you the feel and sound of a Gibson L-5CES, but having had archtops from all three makers, I can report that all three brands are worthy. And different.

Later model Guilds will have a Poly finish rather than nitro and will come with Guild humbuckers made by Duncan which are different than the earlier Guild humbuckers. The Heritage archtops will have Schaller humbuckers or Duncan humbuckers and some will have Heritage made humbuckers. In general the Guilds, like modern Gibsons will be overbuilt (meaning a very dead acoustic sound) and the Heritage archtops may be underbuilt (watch out for sunken tops and an overly bright tone).

Another option to consider is a Campellone with built in pickups. Lots of choices out there. IMO, the best choice is the Gibson (assuming it is a good one, as not all of them are). Remember that the highest quality guitar will be enjoyed long after the highest price is forgotten. I replaced my Blonde Artist Award (which was a superb guitar to be sure) with a Blonde L-5CES. I am happy with where I landed. HTH

[SierraTango]

I would get a Heritage Super eagle or Golden E. The one here listed looks great price excellent but not everyone handles 18 inch body well. Heritage guitars way undervalued.

17" is my comfort zone.

[Jimmy blue note]

Westerly Guilds have always been the trophies in the shadows. The combination of workmanship, design and pickups that are a destinctly unique equal to the best Gibson has ever made. Honestly I like their character more than PAFs though both are worthy of the best guitars. Jimmy D'Aquisto used them of the pickup of choice in his own exquisite workhorse guitars (Jim Hall's sound).
I've seen a steep decline in the X-700's on the market so if you ever see one, it's worth a try if you're serious. X-500 is also a guitar for life if you find a good Westerly in good shape.

[Hammertone]

This one is nice.

[jorgemg1984]

I have a 1965 X-500 and it's a great guitar, after some siginifcant mods. Have done qute a good shar eof gigs with that axe - it sounds like a laminate, with the typical thunk, and t's more on the acoustic side than the 175s I tried. The current making guitars that remind me of the X-500 are Sadowskys.

[andrew]

I have a '58 X-500 that continues to astound me every time I play it. I think the build quality, with the possible exception of the pickups (although they're certainly not without their charm) is right up there with the best of the Gibson golden era. It's pretty bright with all the controls wide open, but rolling the tone control back yields a very pleasing jazz tone.

[DawgBone]

Archtop Heaven posted audio of him playing a Guild 500 or 700, I forget which, covering Moonlight in Vermont. You could hardly find a better sounding guitar. I have an X-170 myself and it is a nice sounding instrument. That whole Guild lineup from the 80's and 90's Westerly are very great instruments for very reasonable money. It doesn't say Gibson on it so nobody wants them.

[dconeill]

... a CES type instrument ... L-5 CES ...

It was always my impression that "CES" was an adjectival acronym for "Cutaway Electric Spanish", used by Gibson starting in about the early 1950s to differentiate the L-5 CES from its non-cutaway, acoustic relative the L-5. Other guitars that were given the same acronym were the Super 400 CES and the L-4 CES.

Is "CES" now commonly used to mean something like a 17-inch lower bout, 25.5-inch scale, carved-spruce-top cutaway acoustic archtop with built-in pickups?

Added 2023 12 01
I am reminded that I've frequently seen the nickname "WesMo" used for L5 Wes Montgomery models.

[Archie]

Archtop Heaven posted audio of him playing a Guild 500 or 700, I forget which, covering Moonlight in Vermont. You could hardly find a better sounding guitar. I have an X-170 myself and it is a nice sounding instrument. That whole Guild lineup from the 80's and 90's Westerly are very great instruments for very reasonable money. It doesn't say Gibson on it so nobody wants them.

Yes DawgBone that was my X700. Recorded straight into a Universal Audio D/A converter. No amp or effects in the chain, except a bit of reverb from an AU plug in.

The X700 has that nice nutty sound you don't often get from the X500. Prices on the X700 seem up and down. One sold here for about $3500 a few months back. I was tempted to buy it myself but have other pressing priorities. I will one day buy another one.

The Gibson L5CES is not better made than a Guild X-700; if anything Guild binding is much finer and the headstock is prettier (imo). The Guild inlays are also more attractive and the tail Piece is a work of art in itself. Guild necks are also (imo) nicer and have a more sophisticated heal carves. It's not a competition but that's my impression from experiencing both.

The Guild x700 is for the most part the same as an L5CES (minus scale length) but the X700 tops are slightly cruder in shape and the over all plate, is not as refined. The Gibson is likely a better quality plate in terms of carving (they are both router carved). The X700 feels like it is one thickness throughout and the 'carved' aspect, seems more of a marketing position, than an attempt to make a 'carved' archtop. Guild probably thought this because what is the point when you have two huge pickups and tone knobs cut into it anyway and they have the AA line.
Gibson feel the same way about their L5CES which is braced like a tank. They're not foremost 'carved' guitars. They are electric Archtops so refining the top is not important. Bracing and over all thickness probably is.
Then you have playability which I would probably give to the Guild.

The L5CES has more of a chime where the X700 has more of a thunk, likely due to the L5 having a 25'5 scale length and a more pronounced arch to the top and back plates.
I would therefore say the L5 CES has the better tone in the room.

My one gripe with the X700 would be the top and back plates are definitely looking to avoid any warranty issues. But then they do give you that thick, soupy, nutty tone, that on recording, sounds pretty close to perfection. Certainly as close as I've gotten with all the 50+ Archtops I've owned.

I'd score it as follows:

Playability (neck angle, fingerboard extension, heal size, cutaway access) = Guild
Tone = Gibson
Value = Guild
Recorded Tone = Draw.
Looks = Draw (although I personally prefer the Guild)





Here's the recording I made.

[Rickco]

"Heritage archtops may be underbuilt (watch out for sunken tops and an overly bright tone)." I know SSwinger and many others here have long experience with these, now Im nervous. So this is a known problem with the sunken top? Im asking because I play heavy strings on my GE which seems to be a thinner carved top. Its a '97 floater in a stable environment but I play it everyday so its always tuned to pitch. I think Im suffering from guitar "hypochondriasis".

[Archie]

I wanted to add to my previous post that the X700 has a laminate back and sides, which is another difference between the two and likely why the L5CES sounds more interesting in the room and why it costs more to make.

[ThatRhythmMan]

I wanted to add to my previous post that the X700 has a laminate back and sides, which is another difference between the two and likely why the L5CES sounds more interesting in the room and why it costs more to make.

Through much of the 1960s the L-5 CES also had laminated backs.


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[Hammertone]

I wanted to add to my previous post that the X700 has a laminate back and sides, which is another difference between the two and likely why the L5CES sounds more interesting in the room and why it costs more to make.

Through much of the 1960s the L-5 CES also had laminated backs.

And, IIRC, there was a period of time during which the Guild X-700 model had a solid, carved maple back.

[Hammertone]

It was always my impression that "CES" was an adjectival acronym for "Cutaway Electric Spanish", used by Gibson starting in about the early 1950s to differentiate the L-5 CES from its non-cutaway, acoustic relative the L-5. Other guitars that were given the same acronym were the Super 400 CES and the L-4 CES. Is "CES" now commonly used to mean something like a 17-inch lower bout, 25.5-inch scale, carved-spruce-top cutaway acoustic archtop with built-in pickups?

Yes. CES-style means two pickups, four knobs and a three-way switch, all set-in, for the most part. Just as WES-style is one neck pickup and two knobs, all set-in.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Yes. CES-style means two pickups, four knobs and a three-way switch, all set-in, for the most part. Just as WES-style is one neck pickup and two knobs, all set-in.

Except when it doesn’t……….

I suppose there is no Super 400 Wes though.





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[wintermoon]

I posted this before, when I was a young man I had purchased a 70s blonde L-5CES. Beautiful guitar but my teacher sounded superb on his Guild X-500. So I went to a local music store, Cintiolli's, and tried to trade the L5 for an X-500. The owner and his buddies, all old timer Italian cats laughed at me and said I was nuts, one guy even said "stay right here, I'll go home and get my X-500 and trade you"
So I kept the Gibson and learned to actually play it instead of thinking the X-500 was gonna make sound better. Silly kid.....

Guilds are nice and well made, just not for me, I gotta have the long scale anyway. I never understood why even the top models look like they have $2 pickguards.

[Hammertone]

Except when it doesn’t……….
I suppose there is no Super 400 Wes though.

I guess drinking on the job was still a thing when that label was filled in. I think this one, sold by John G. Stewart, also has a "CES" label, but it's a bona fide '94 Super Wes.

[Archie]

I posted this before, when I was a young man I had purchased a 70s blonde L-5CES. Beautiful guitar but my teacher sounded superb on his Guild X-500. So I went to a local music store, Cintiolli's, and tried to trade the L5 for an X-500. The owner and his buddies, all old timer Italian cats laughed at me and said I was nuts, one guy even said "stay right here, I'll go home and get my X-500 and trade you"
So I kept the Gibson and learned to actually play it instead of thinking the X-500 was gonna make sound better. Silly kid.....

Guilds are nice and well made, just not for me, I gotta have the long scale anyway. I never understood why even the top models look like they have $2 pickguards.

Agree with the pickgaurd. Shape is good but could do with some binding.

[2bornot2bop]

"Heritage archtops may be underbuilt (watch out for sunken tops and an overly bright tone)." I know SSwinger and many others here have long experience with these, now Im nervous. So this is a known problem with the sunken top? Im asking because I play heavy strings on my GE which seems to be a thinner carved top. It’s a '97 floater in a stable environment but I play it everyday so it’s always tuned to pitch. I think Im suffering from guitar "hypochondriasis".

No need to worry. SS hasn’t owned every Heritage built archtop. How long did Heritage build those archtop’s? And how many are still in circulation? I would bet there are more Gibsons with sunken tops than Heritage. Now, play that GE like there’s no tomorrow!

[andrew]

Having currently and previously owned several archtops from all three companies, my general consensus is that they're all different and all can be excellent. There can be considerable variations within the same brand and even the same model. Find one (or several!) that speaks to you and don't worry about the rest.

On the Heritage topic, I'll add that some of the earlier ones I've seen (including my '01) the trend seems to be lighter builds/thinner tops. They apparently have thickened them up in recent years. Funny that they mirrored Gibson's electric archtop history in that regard.

But yes, I agree that Guild seems to be on the good side of the dollar-value ratio. There's a '61 Hoboken made X-500 with DeArmond Dynasonics that just popped up on Reverb for $4000 and I gotta say, I was SORELY tempted for a moment!

[Archie]

Having currently and previously owned several archtops from all three companies, my general consensus is that they're all different and all can be excellent. There can be considerable variations within the same brand and even the same model. Find one (or several!) that speaks to you and don't worry about the rest.

On the Heritage topic, I'll add that some of the earlier ones I've seen (including my '01) the trend seems to be lighter builds/thinner tops. They apparently have thickened them up in recent years. Funny that they mirrored Gibson's electric archtop history in that regard.

But yes, I agree that Guild seems to be on the good side of the dollar-value ratio. There's a '61 Hoboken made X-500 with DeArmond Dynasonics that just popped up on Reverb for $4000 and I gotta say, I was SORELY tempted for a moment!

I’m eyeing one up currently.

[andrew]

I’m eyeing one up currently.

Oh how nice! What year/era?