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Hi all, figured I'd make this a separate thread from my NGD about the guitar since this can apply to any archtop. I tried to change strings and the low E is incredibly stuck and even with a tool inserted into the hole of the string I can't pull it through. The guitar lived in low humidity New Mexico until it arrived here, on an island, with very high humidity. It's been in my air conditioned studio 95% of the time but I have turned AC off at night. Anyway I'm sure the tailpiece swelled. It probably needs someone to drill larger holes but that won't be possible for months, at least not without a lot of traveling. I'm considering using a hairdryer type device to dry out the tailpiece. Any ideas on how I can mange this? Thanks......Peter
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07-22-2023 10:55 AM
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I guess if it's possible you've tried turning the string like a screw with the tool inserted. Just a thought, IDK
Originally Posted by Woodstove
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Could I ask for a photo please? (a thousand words...) It's hard to tell or recommend a course of action because there are variables and I don't want to be responsible for something happening that I wouldn't have done had I more information.
But I've been in situations like that, and there are different routes I'd used. There are penetrating lubricants, some like graphite suspended in a non petroleum based (don't want to react to oil based finishes) liquid or tri-flo teflon based lubricant that can seep into and between the two surfaces. Your description lacks information on the tailpiece itself. Are we talking wood and steel? Steel and steel? I can't tell.
You might remove the tailpiece from the guitar and if it's a carved wood tailpiece, it'll have a lower expansion coefficient than steel, pop it in the freezer and let the string ball end contract ever so slightly and then with a pair of needle nose pliers, grip and push the string loose and through.
But as I say, I can't see what you see, feel what you feel or even imagine what's right in front of your face.
I'm sure it can be loosened.
Patience, finesse, brute force applied with a surgeon's touch. Easy peazy.
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I'm just packing it to go play at w wedding, pictures when I get back. It's an ebony tailpiece on a spruce top. If you look at my NGD Trenier 1027 thread you'll see a picture of the guitar. I'll get a close up but the ball end of the string simply won't push through the tailpiece to remove the string. Thanks much, I'll get back....Peter Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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Checked NGD, and as expected: Thomastic silk wrap. Low E is very tight in my Borys. I just use brute strength and ignorance.
It's the silk wrap, and probably not humidity. Actually, humidity should cause the hole to get bigger. If anything the AC is making the hole smaller. But it's the silk. If you can twist it while pulling maybe it'll break up. Looking at an old JS53 I can see that in getting it out I've frayed the silk, so maybe it just needs to 'loosen up'
Or maybe humidity make silk thicker? Maybe a hairdryer carefully applied could help, but it'll make the steel bigger.
Next time I change strings I'll see about taking a file to the tailpiece. Mine's metal and slotted.
Maybe a call or email to Brian? I'm sure he's run into this before. Lots of us use TI's. Love your guitar BTW!
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Thanks. I just emailed Bryant. I should have mentioned they were Tis with the silk and that's exactly where it's stuck The thing is Kyle Bryant who sold it to me has been using the TI 12s and I can't imagine he's run into what I'm seeing. I'm waiting to hear back from him. That's why I think humidity is the culprit. Originally Posted by ccroft
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Maybe he never changed them :-) There's many threads about leaving them on for years at a time.
Actually, I can see he has D'Add rounds on it in the NGD. Maybe the TI's were a recent 'experiment'.
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I just heard from Kyle. He’s been using the flats for a while and says he’s put about four sets on. He says the low E has always been a little bit of a problem, but clearly not like what I’m seeing. I’m gonna get some needle nose pliers, and put a little bit more muscle into it. I think it’ll work out sometime after this wedding. Originally Posted by ccroft
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Wraps. Yeah. I've seen this more than I can count. Needle nose. Just go for a mm at a time to try to dislodge it. Honestly, on strings with that wrap, I remove the wrappings for the hole clearance and to give the string to make ground contact with any kind of ground wire arrangement that might be impeded by the wrap.
I also have a sewing awl in the toolkit just for situations like this.
Be patient. The moment you let your patience slip, that's when accidents happen.
Good luck.
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thanks Jimmy. I was planning on removing the wrap if possible, sounds like it is.....Peter Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
Last edited by Woodstove; 07-22-2023 at 04:26 PM.
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not sure I agree that humidity would make the hole bigger. The wood swells and that should tighten the hole. I use TIs also, but I also really liked the La Bella jazz tapes on my Gibson. That's a 14 gauge, definitely too thick for the tailpiece. I have a set of 12s and the wrap at the ball end if anything seems thinner than the TI so I'm hopeful it can work if I ever get the string out! Thanks very much.....Peter Originally Posted by ccroft
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I use TI Jazz Swing 12’s on my Trenier with a similar tailpiece, and it’s alway a tight fit. I have to scrape the red wrapping off the ball end of the string to make them fit, and it takes a firm pull to get them back out to change them. Expansion due to a change in humidity is not helping for sure.
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Wood movement is a funny thing. It's not like a sponge, equal and in all directions. Most, or basically all of the dimensional change in that tailpiece is across the grain left to right. The wood above and below the hole swells with humidity too. The hole becomes an oval.
In my experience a hole gets tighter when seasoned wood shrinks from humidity change. It's like metal and heat. The hole gets bigger when heated, just like the piece of metal gets bigger. That's how mechanics free up seized pieces. By expanding the drilled piece with heat. That's why heating a stuck lid on a jar with hot water helps unstick it. It's actually an interesting question, and a bit of a brain teaser!
That hole is just too dang small! There are other posts about this problem with TI's and I have it myself, even though my tailpiece is all metal and there is no actual hole the string goes through.
I think the advice about unwrapping the ball end is solid. Might start doing that myself. Enlarging the slot a bit would also be pretty simple for me.
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I use a very narrow rat tail file and try to 'spin' a uniform removal of material. I get nervous with tight tolerance pre drilled bores, securing the tailpiece against a high speed bit is a little scary. It shouldn't take much to give added clearance. Then a piece of material or string to get some oil finish in there to seal the grain and that could go a long way towards future binding up. Carnuba based wax would do too. Originally Posted by ccroft
If you were really cautious, I suppose the old trick of soaping the ball end, running it along the edge of a bar of soap, like soaping the threads of a screw before setting it into the wood to minimize the reaction between the diaparate materials, could help. I don't see the harm in that.
Any thoughts guys?
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pretty much my thoughts JBN. if you use a drill bit that's a hair bigger it should eliminate a spinning t.p. but you'd have to drill it precisely w/ no angle or yeah it could be a disaster. I have a really high end individual luthier built guitar w/ just that problem and I curse every time I have to change that low E. but unfortunately impossible to fix w this particuar guitar's t.p. construction so I live w/ it.... Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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My thoughts: trickier for the Trenier for sure. Should be a piece of cake for me though. I won't know precisely what I have to do until I get around to taking my TP off. But it should be within my experience to fix it once and for all if I ever get there.
Meanwhile... I'll be stripping the silk off the ball end.
It's a slot and I've got a small rattail. No shots of the bottom side.
I've got one of these:
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Ha! OK.... I'm a bit of a crazy man. I admit it. Or maybe it's just because I've already played for a few hours today and have some time on my hands.
So I spied a hard, dried out sponge by the basement sink. I drilled a 3/4 hole with a forstner thru the middle. Did a lovely job of it! Then I soaked the sponge. What I got is an oval 7/8 X 13/16.
Back to the practice room for me.
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Too cool man!! Not totally convinced yet, but I'm no sponge denier. Meanwhile I'm letting her sit in a very air-conditioned room with humidity of 20% for a few days before I try again. Even if it means practicing with a winter coat on. I'll keep you posted. ....Peter Originally Posted by ccroft
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" I suppose the old trick of soaping the ball end, running it along the edge of a bar of soap, like soaping the threads of a screw before setting it into the wood to minimize the reaction between the diaparate materials, could help. I don't see the harm in that."
I can't do any drilling or tailpiece removal, just not in my programing. But I sure could run the string along a bar of soap! Will try it, if I ever get the correct string out that is.
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So, are there good flat wound strings with no wrap at the ball end?
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Insert in hole of ball end pull and remove.
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Careful leaving that guitar in 20% you don't want to wind up w fret sprout, checking, or even worse, cracks. I sure wouldn't try it, besides, what are you going to do after it reabsorbs moisture? Originally Posted by Woodstove
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Trying to pry the ball end with needle nose pliers is a waste of force, you’re likely to slip and scrape the tailpiece. Vinny’s suggestion to hook the ball end is much better. If you don’t have a handy tool like Vinny’s, just thread a string through the ball end and pull.
I had a similar issue on a guitar, learned the hard way not to tug on delicate things with needle nose pliers.
Edit: sorry Vinny dunno why attributed your suggestion to mark. Maybe bc you’re both experienced and trustworthy guitar stewards.
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Putting that guitar in 20% humidity is also a terrible idea man. You just got it and you’re gonna regret the decision when you cause a crack in the soundboard.
If you’re set on drying it out, why don’t you just remove the tailpiece and dry that out instead of destroying your new instrument? I know it’s really none of my business but I feel obligated to protect this guitar right now lol.
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I hear you and thanks. I'll keep the room at 45-55%. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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