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Maybe there is people which enough money to not care about paying only for the brand: I dont really understand why someone can desire a darker tone due to a heavier top... I mean, Why not get a laminate guitar 25,5 scale instead of carving solid spruce and maple if you want it to sound muddy?
It will cost you 10 times less and sound exactly the same if you dont want the resonance to change your tone.
Myself I prefer a fully responsive top if i am going to spend such a money in a guitar. If not I changed the pickup in my washburn J6S and will get a dark tone...
Enviado desde mi LG-H870 mediante Tapatalk
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11-14-2018 11:32 PM
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Gustavo my friend...
I think what I was describing could be explained by me more clearly. Most of the guys (me included to some degree) really love Wes Montgomery's tone. He's known for playing a Gibson L5 (now they have a model made pretty much like what Wes used). When comparing the Heritage Golden Eagle to the Gibson L5 we tend to think the Golden Eagle is more acoustic,"lighter" in tone because the top is a shade thinner and the f-holes are a wee bit wider. The Gibson, as described earlier, has a thicker top and narrower f-holes and gives out that Wes Tone... So it's not so much DARK like in a room with no lights, it's maybe fatter and mellower... Not a tone that can be replicated with a laminated guitar and tweaking of tone knobs... It's a translation thing. My apologies...
Big
Originally Posted by Gustavo Eiriz
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The L-5CES models are special guitars because they are dark AND bright. They are far from muddy, unless of course you zero out the tone controls. Wes Montgomery's tone is anything but dark! It is very crisp and articulate. But it sure is fat at the same time. This dynamic range is unique to the L-5CES family. Originally Posted by Gustavo Eiriz
You cannot get the L-5CES sound from a Tal Farlow or ES-175. Are they similar? Yes, of course; we are talking shades of whatever color you see when you imagine the classic Gibson jazz tone. But the instruments are simply not interchangeable.
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Mike, please dont apologize, I have been a little strong the way that i wrote and it sounded like I was shouting at you, sorry... Originally Posted by BigMikeinNJ
I love L-5 Wes, I do have one. I was mainly speaking about L-5 Ces with two pickups. It was about the misunderstanding!
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A man after my own heart. Some people invest in works of art to hang around their homes; some invest in season tickets for their favorite sports teams; I prefer to invest in these lovely instruments, which I can play and enjoy, but also simply love looking at. Originally Posted by Bluedawg
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If you can't choose between those two excellent guitars or they are too pricey for you, get an Heritage H550, swap the bridge for a rosewood unit and away you go...¡just kidding!
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Having played both, if cost was not an issue, then I'd go for the L5. However, when you take into account the cost difference, the Heritage Golden Eagle wins every time.
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Originally Posted by CliveR
That seems to be especially true on your side of the pond
In the US, Gibson prices are crazy high, but they don't seem to be as crazy as they are in the UK and Europe
And we seem to have more used Gibsons on the market ...
Some of the Heritage prices over here aren't that much less than what you can buy a Gibson for at street prices
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This guitar is an excellent workhorse, just like the ES-175. It's a guitar that sounds great, is durable, and won't break the bank.
Originally Posted by Dhango
If you can't choose between those two excellent guitars or they are too pricey for you, get an Heritage H550, swap the bridge for a rosewood unit and away you go...¡just kidding!
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HI Marty,
Isn't cross bracing usually used for acoustic guitars and the parallel bracing used when the pickup goes through the top? So do the acoustic versions with the floating pickup both have cross bracing?
They are both 17" wide and 20" long bodies. Gibson has played with the shape slightly over the years. The scale length is the same. The neck on the Heritage appears to have the Gibson Super 400 Fretboard. I have to assume the neck tongue you are talking about is the material between the top and the the overlap of the fretboard? I really would have a difficult time believing this would affect the tone, as the thicness of the top and the amount of mass in that area would certainly deaden any acoustics in that area. How they tune the ops and back would certainly make huge differences in tone. As I said, the old L5 s built in Kalamazoo were all built by different guys and had slightly different characteristics. Take a look at the Heritage and Gibson's Super 400. Something about the Heritage design seems influenced by the S400. I was an physicist in aerospace who specialized in acoustics and vibrational analysis. I have owned both an L5 and Super 400 - never even seen or touched a Heritage! Here's what I think goes on. Each company has to have some kind of selling point. I think Gibson hit in the L5 sound and got so much great feedback, they modeled that sound very carefully. I believe they tune their L5 to match that model. I would think that Heritage has their own model and parameters to tune to. So if you want the L5 sound, you simply gotta get an L5. I would tell you too, that the old big box Gibsons made in the 40's and 50's have had glue problems. Through that era the tops and bottoms came unglued regularly. The bindings were a big problem for Gibson clears up into the 70's. Great conversation!
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1. There are bracing approaches for different effects. The parallel braces accentuate brightness. This was used before amplification to cut through the horns and accentuate the percussive sound. It is a convenient bracing for mounted pickups because of the space between the braces. However some amplified guitarists preferred crossed or A bracing for better low frequency response from the top. Floating pickups can easily go over any bracing. Mounted neck pickups may require some shaving of the cross bracing but usually not if well thought out during the building process. The older Heritages were ordered with either bracing by customer choice.
2. The L-5 is 1" longer body and is 3/8th" deeper. The fretboard inlays on the Heritage usually are clouds, like the Citation, but could be anything the customer asked for.
3. The tongue was used by Gibson to prevent "ski sloping" or fretboard rise. Some feel that this feature diminished volume and clarity in the highest notes. Personally, I don't notice a difference.
Heritage had some real challenges when it started out. Gibson initially had no real concerns about Heritage since it was just four ex-employees who raised the capital to buy out a bunch of Gibson equipment and a building. Soon Heritage had patent infringement problems with some of their designs, both from Fender and Gibson. Heritage made some modest design changes on their Les Paul style to avoid a successful lawsuit against them. Other guitars were dropped from their line. But the decision on a 3" deep archtop with a shorter body was made because they felt it was a very good design. It was comfortable and less bulky without sacrificing amplified tone. In other words they designed their hollowbodies to be electric from day one.
The Heritage builders were old school from the beginning. While I never heard any of them say this, it seems modernity was a dirty word. I know they worked hard and with their hands. Their factory started early and closed at 3:30 PM. They were closed for part of deer season. They loved the look and feel of wood. Benedetto is an intellectual. These guys are/were clever enough but not snobs.
They were not market savvy. Had they been, they wouldn't have used that headstock design and would have put long tenons in their LP-like guitars. Customers were chanting for those changes from the beginning. The Heritage owners responded by saying that the headstock is more functional because it is lighter and there is a straight string pull, unlike Gibson. Further, the long tenon played no role in the ultimate sound. They were obstinate, especially about their headstock design. They did go to the long tenon though a little less than 10 years ago since it is a little cheaper to leave it long and it didn't hurt anything. But there were true emotional arguments about that little change, and it took many years.
Tim, I agree that it is very interesting to get into the weeds on this stuff.
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Each Heritage archtop I owned, and there were more than a few, sounded unique to itself. No 2 guitars sounded alike. Which makes sense because Heritage was in the business of creating guitars that, within reason, fit the order requirements for each customer. Comparing Heritage to a Gibson is a false equivalency. The only thing they shared in common is they're both guitars. Building a great acoustic was a strength of Heritage guitar.
A guitar is not a one size fits all instrument. I always found the comparisons between Heritage/Gibson silly. It's forum dribble.
A Heritage Golden or Super Eagle needs no apology. They're outstanding guitars, each of which stands on its own merit.
here's a rare florentine cutaway GE with a custom headstock, currently for sale
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 11-17-2018 at 07:19 PM.
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Had Heritage been able to simply build GIbson L5's I think they would have been the L5 I would rather have had. Since they could not I still prefer the L5 but that does no mean the Heritage is any really less of a guitar. Practically speaking I just would rather have an L5 for the looks and what it does. Had Heritage been able to make there guitar a carbon copy of an L5 then that is probably a true winner. Gibson did get better at times.
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Originally Posted by Marty Grass
To be clear, the Heritage Golden Eagle is not based on the Gibson L-5. It is based on the Gibson Kalamazoo Award. Originally Posted by Greentone
Heritage was/is capable of doing all sorts of things when asked. Just throw money at them. Sometimes yelling is involved. That Al Brienza guitar reminds me of this one - the Heritage Super Patrick, which has a lot of different things going on, with some Heritage dimensions and some Gibson dimensions. It looks great, it feels great, it sounds great.
Plenty more here:
Demystifying the famous Heritage Super Patrick
and here:
Heritage Super PatrickLast edited by Hammertone; 05-10-2021 at 03:31 AM.
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deleted. wrong thread.
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I was offered the Super Patrick in a straight trade for a unique Heritage Johnny Smith. I had to decline that trade, namely because the HJS sold for $5k, and I knew selling any Heritage guitar for $5k was problematic. Anyway, I'm happy the Super Patrick ended up with you Stephen! Originally Posted by Hammertone
Heritage was/is capable of doing all sorts of things when asked. Just throw money at them. Sometimes yelling is involved. That Al Brienza guitar reminds me of this one - the Heritage Super Patrick, which has a lot of different things going on, with some Heritage dimensions, some Gibson dimensions, even some Hofner dimensions (scale length of 25 1/4"). It looks great, it feels great, it sounds great.
Plenty more here:
Demystifying the famous Heritage Super Patrick
and here:
Heritage Super Patrick
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That night you called to cancel our trade I had my cigar smoking buddys visiting - we were on my porch drinking 30 year old Methalusem cuban rum and smoking the best cigars like it was nothing. I kept saying "where's my bartender" when one of my buddies said Hey Mike your phone's ringing... it was a good thing for me you changed your mind Greg - I was all set to go to Pete Moreno and have him recarve the neck to my liking - next day Marty Grass offered me a straight up trade for Bob LaFonds old American Eagle. I never could bond with the neck on that Super Patrick.
That was a wild month, first I got that sharp cut Super Eagle, half hour later bought Patrick’s 18 inch Unity. A week later I find the ‘39 L5P with the Charlie Christian. Then traded for the American Eagle. Then bought that 18 inch Heritage Johnny Smitn and not much later an 18 inch Unity 100th Anniversary. My banker was flipping out. I sold the Johnny Smith to Joe and everything else is sitting 6 feet from me.
I love what Heritage could do when they really went crazy. These photos do this guitar no justice - I guess you gotta be a little bit of a crazy Veteran/Patriot to like this guitar. The detail on this old girl will blow your mind. That big tailpiece looks right perfect once you play her. It's got that swirly sound inside when you match the volume of the amp to the acoustic volume.
Last edited by BigMikeinNJ; 11-19-2018 at 09:01 PM.
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IMO, that American Eagle is a beautiful guitar and an example of American craftsmanship at it's best.
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I own both a 2000 Golden Eagle and a 2011 custom shop L5.
I ordered the Golden Eagle in 1999 and received it in 2000. Having aged for 19 years, the sound has matured and opened up very nicely. It’s very very warm and woody. However, it does not sound like a L5. There’s a certain attack with notes coming from the L5. I compared my L5 to a friend’s early 90s Wes Montgomery model. Both exhibited the same tonal characteristic. So there is some truth to the saying, nothing sounds like a L5 except a L5.
Despite it’s great sound and reputation, I was really shocked when I compared it to my buddy’s Le Grand, modeled after the Johnny Smith. It had more of everything the L5 had. Huge resonant woody tones.
At the end of the day, we can go nuts with chasing that ultimate jazz tone. We all have a personal inkling to what our tone preferences are. Fundamentally a jazz tone to me is just a warm full tone. I can get that even with my Tele and Strat in the neck position, with some EQ-ing.
However, I totally understand the never ending pursuit : )
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Sure are some beautiful looking guitars in these threads of different makes. But just like Strats,Teles,335,etc have all been refined . The Gibson L-5 seems to be the template for most archtop carved guitars.
So wether you go for the more acoustic or electric version as well as scale length and body depth, these are still basically based on the guitar Loyd Loar invented in the 1920s.
For me as I've stated in this thread already Gibson Crimson Division under Phillip Wharton, are probably my favorite Gibson Archtops ever!
That said with all the great luthiers like Mark Campellone,etc. It sure is a great time to get your dream L-5
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