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Ιf i 'll choose the JJBELECTRONICS VTP-200(wich i like a lot) or the K&K Pure Archtop i think i will have to go for a preamp to, or it isn't necessary?Also what about the feedback in this situation.
Last edited by kosteva; 01-22-2015 at 10:50 AM.
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01-22-2015 10:41 AM
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If you already own an amp designed for amplifying acoustic instruments, chances are you don't absolutely NEED a preamp. I would recommend it anyways, even so, to have better control over your sound. My current wet dream is this acoustic preamp/DI box:
Headway Music Audio EDB-2 | Headway Music Audio
Having a handy way to fiddle with the sound is important, for me. If you are not into that, there are plenty of super simple options too, from K&K and many others.
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Well i think i will go for the JJB ELECTRONICS vtp-200!!I don't want to spend a lot of money for an experiment!!It seems to be a nice and cheap option.When i 'll make the installation i will inform you for the result.The amp that i play is the AER domino.I will think apout the preamp after the teat on AER.Thanks a lot you guys,you 've been vary helpful!!
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Hello Kosteva,
Did you do this install? I seen this on ebay and the pics show it installed in an acoustic steel string guitar, no mention of archtops in that ad. It would seem to be hard to do.
Glenn
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Those pickups are cheap enough to try. I'd probably clip the pickups off to install, place the controls where needed then hook things up. I have a thinline import that I used to have K&ks installed in for a direct comparison. The suggested archtop installation location for K&Ks is under the top on the bridge side of the f holes. superglue gel is used as it won't run off and gives you a extra few seconds to get things in place.
From working on several guitars I think under the bridge would give a fuller tone but this is impossible to reach with out something like a humbucker bridge pickup hole.
Things like this do work under the bridge feet, K&K realized this and came up with a rectangular paddle set that provides more contact than the circle version. On a guitar with parallel braces you'll be sensing vibrations from the length of the top.
For through the f hole mounting and parallel bracing I'd recommend trying to use a skinny finger and place it right up to the edge of the brace next to the bridge. For the bridge humbucker hole method I'd try between the braces.
K&K has removable double sided adhesive film to use if you want to try different locations. It takes nerves of steel and a firm gentle touch with the right implement to take the pickups off without damage but it can be done.
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Originally Posted by Spook410
I'm not seeing a dedicated Pure Archtop pickup on the K&K web site, just the flattop and classical pure pickups ... am I looking in the wrong place?
Definity System | K&K Sound
I'm thinking of electrifying this lovely acoustic
But I can't bring myself to put a pickguard and floater on it ... it looks too good as it is and I don't want to drill any holes .. at least not yet
I was thinking of having my local techs put in something like the Pure pickups on the inside under the bridge and seeing what kind of sound that got me .... maybe I wouldn't have to find a way to get a Super 400 after all
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Check out the K&K Pure Floating Bridge to go under the feet. You'd still see the wires but could route them under the tailpiece.
For inside transducers the Big Twin works great, very natural sound in the right spots. The Archtop was essentially this style of pickup. Look in their manual section for the old archtop pickup for mounting suggestions then look at my post above.
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Thanks Originally Posted by Cavalier
Here's the Big Twin
Big Twin
and the archtop manual
http://kksound.com/pdf/purearchtop.pdf
I may give this a try .. or the under the bridge pickup
Definity System | K&K Sound
I should be able to get my techs to run an endpin through the bottom for the connection and I would be set
My Campellone doesn't have a strap pin on the bottom so that would let me wear a strap with it as well
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A simple tool not every one knows about can help with transducer location. This is a wired up transducer plugged into a amp that you move around while strumming to check tone. A surprisingly effective primitive version is a listening dowel but I won't give directions in case someone perforates their ears not understanding primitive tools. Finally a old stethoscope can be used but the sensing area might be a bit large. These methods will give a clue to the installed location tone and can be used to verify and fine tune the installation guidelines. Every guitar is different and needs to be dialed in on a individual basis when installing transducers.
I find endpin jacks a really convenient solution on acoustic guitars, they are usually stereo if you every want to add something else later like a inside mike etc...Last edited by Cavalier; 05-22-2016 at 11:52 PM.
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If you want an acoustic sound, try the Fishman Transducer Bridge. It has a very high output, too, but may sound harsh with some amps. With a Marshall 50AD, I got compliments on my sound all the time.
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Really beautiful guitar Blue.. Originally Posted by Bluedawg
They don't market the Pure Archtop any longer. However, the True Bass (the one for upright bass) is exactly the same thing. I got this from K&K customer service.
Both the Definity and the Pure model require fiddling around with placement. Both also require a pretty good EQ setup since you won't like what you initially hear. I use an Empress EQ though the controls on the Grace Designs Felix are pretty good as well. Both pickups, to my ears, yield a less than great sound overall even after EQ. They are mounted on very good acoustic instruments but amplified with a high fidelity rig they only achieve 'OK'. Of course I don't have a big sample space with one Definity and two Pure Archtop's. That and while I had a tech do the install, fixed transducers aren't necessarily a good match for a movable bridge so that is always suspect.
While it's not much help for what you're trying to do, where I finally ended up in my search for a great acoustic archtop amplified sound was a Mr. Wu oval hole archtop with a Sunrise pickup. Not something you can mount from a pickguard. This is plugged into a Felix preamp (which makes an audible difference) driving a Schertler Jam 150 speaker. The only thing better I've yet to encounter is a microphone.
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K&K use the big 3/4" transducer in several models including the bass, it just comes down to whether you want to buy 4,2, or 1 at a time. I get good sound using flat eq and have enough output to run without a preamp if I want to but it takes time to find the sweet spots. On my initial test installation the tone was lacking for sure but the final results are worth the trouble. Getting a carved top tone out of a heavy laminate isn't going to happen, in a case like this a bridge oriented system might be a better approach with the body transducers adding some resonance.
Last edited by Cavalier; 05-28-2016 at 10:49 AM.
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Hi all! My friend is building me an archtop, and we're figuring out what electronics to put inside. My plan is to support a stereo plug with a floating magnetic pickup (already chosen), and a transducer pickup.
So now I'm trying to decide what transducer to get. So far, I know of
- Fishman Archtop Bridge Pickup
- K&K Definity
- K&K Pure Archtop (an acquaintance will sell me his used one)
- Pick-up the World
Does anyone have experience with and opinions of these pickups? I think I'm most interested in which one most accurately reproduces the sound of the individual archtop, not which one sweetens the sound to make it sound even better; my thinking behind this is that I should start with an accurate sound, and save the sweetening for the preamp.
I know that ideally I should try to hear them in person, but I've had a hard time even finding demos online. So far I've found a thread which includes a demo of the K&K Pure Archtop, but unfortunately the attachment is apparently now a dead link. I also found a comparison video for the K&K Definity vs a mic (embedded at the bottom because I can't figure out how to not embed YT videos), which is helpful. I have yet to find any demos of the Fishman pickup, Pick-up the World, or (working) K&K Pure Archtop.
Without bringing sound quality into the equation, I'm drawn towards the Fishman and the K&K Pure Archtop for the ease of changing strings and setting intonation, as I don't have to worry making sure a little metal plate is sandwiched between the bridge and top just so.
For the preamp, I'm going to use a LR Baggs Para DI for the foreseeable future. I might get a Grace Design Felix or Alix later down the road after saving back up my pennies and dimes.
Thanks!
(K&K Definity video):
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Rich Barbera Soloist Transducer. Check out Craig Wagner playing Buscarinos kitted out with the Soloist on Youtube. Your builder has to contact Rich Barbera to order the saddle with the Soloist Transducers.
In my opinion, it is the most natural sounding transducer out there.
Ken Parker uses a modified Fishman Rare Earth Humbucker for bronze strings. If you are thinking of going in that bronze string acoustic archtop direction, you may consider that for your custom build.
The other one is a Lashbrook Transducer in a wooden TOM. No experience with it but something to consider.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 12-13-2016 at 12:15 AM.
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Yep, the Barbera transducer is the one. Listen to Jabbs. I was very close to putting one in the D'Angelico Excel. One of the great things about it is there is no need for a pre-amp.
$300 for the transducer. Another $200 for the install, bridge-top fabrication.
Worth it, In my opinion..
JD
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That was very ironic...
In the video above he's playing "How Insensitive" the irony is with the K & K Definity (which I have on my L7C)
it is SO sensitive that it is almost problematic, the sound of the guitar through a clean sounding amp is very nice and very (crystal) clear, but if you move the guitar at all, you will hear the sound of pantleg or shirt brushing against the guitar. No problem for me as my technique is perfect (Ha Ha!! and I will sell you that nice orange bridge for $175) but it is something to consider esp if you have a super light and already sensitive guitar.
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When I bought the L7C JD told me to "Put on a Barbera, you will be in heaven"... Originally Posted by Max405
Listening to it in the youtube video, I believe he is onto something...Hmmmm
Last edited by Papawooly; 12-13-2016 at 01:53 PM.
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Papawooly, great point about the Definity. It is really sensitive. It finds faults in your technique you never even knew you had.. And you are not allowed to move while recording with it.. And yes, its amazing how orange that bridge really is.. Originally Posted by Papawooly
JD
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Wow, that's quite a pickup! I did see that video once, but I saw the $300 price tag and decided it's out of my price range. However, considering the Fishman is $200, what's another hundred dollars?
I assume this is mainly a question for Barbera, but how does the action and per-string intonation adjustment work? I know most archtop bridge pickups have thumbscrews for adjusting the action, but I'm having a hard time finding a good close-up picture of the Barbera archtop.
As far as string type, I'm also going to have a regular floating humbucker, so I'll be using electric strings. I'll probably start with D'Addario half-round 12-52 (EHR350) and go from there (I use Chromes on my Strat).
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Originally Posted by MRiddickW
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FWIW JJB makes what is, as best as I can tell, a near identical pickup to the K&K Archtop. I've put it in the last couple of guitars I've built.
It is very sensitive. The archtops I build, with their CF soundboard, are very light acoustic first instruments. But these pickups have a tendency of making the whole top act a little like a microphone.
Still, they are much more faithful pickups than any under saddle pickup I've ever heard. As I've said, I'm building acoustic instruments that can be strung with either nylon or steel. YMMV.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Bridge pickups amplify the sound of the string versus the sound of the guitar to a great extent. This lets them get louder. The better ones like the Barbaras or Ovations do so individually for each string helping articulation and further reducing feedback.
I like internal top transducers because they do amplify the sound of the top for a natural sound.. One trick for testing placement is to use a stethoscope to listen to the tone of various locations before installation.
This stuff can get pretty complicated in a hurry blending internal mikes, tranducers in various locations and magnetic pickups in search of the ultimate tone. Sometimes the best idea in any design is to use the KISS principle. (keep it simple stupid)
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I have a K&K Definity - as far as piezo transducers go it's one of the better ones I've tried. Still needs quite a bit of EQing to sound decent though - relatively resistant to feedback. I use it for big band work where I try to go for a more acoustic sound for rhythm guitar.
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Interesting idea about using the stethoscope Cavalier, I never would have thought of that!
At this point, I think I have it narrowed down to the Barbera Soloist or the K&K Pure Archtop. It depends on whether I want to amplify when I tap the top of my guitar; I never get crazy with it, but sometimes I just can't help myself!
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A transducer can also be hooked to a plug in and moved around the top for tone location. The old fashioned way is to use a dowel as a sounding rod. Obviously for all these methods the guitar must be strung and strummed etc...
For the Pure Archtop I'd suggest under the bridge feet areas inside the top not at the edges of the F holes like they show. This is a pair of their big 3/4" transducers. Doing the homework lets you fine tune your installation to the individual guitar. The Barbera should give a good sound without the location fuss, it all depends on what you are looking for in the sound.
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