Natural Acoustic Archtop Sound - How to Amplify?

**christianm77** · 06-26-2017, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Spook410

While I have nothing but admiration for the very few that have dialed this in for stage, unless you have a compelling reason to go with a mic, it's simply too hard.

K&K Bass model (they don't make the archtop any more but bass is same thing) is fine until you need to adjust the position of the bridge for any reason (seasonal, string change, et al). This is why they work well on flat tops but not so much on archtops.

The K&K Definity works OK, super easy to install, and it's cheap. Mine takes a lot of EQ dialing making me appreciate the Empress ParaEQ. I've never really bonded with mine but even if it doesn't work out you're not out much. Just try it under a few different places under the bridge. It can make quite a difference.

Acoustic strings over a Kent Armstrong hand wound have a nice sound. Through a good acoustic amp night/day from a polytone.

So since you don't have a soundhole to drop an acoustic magnetic pickup into, my recommendation would be acoustic strings, a full range humbucker or single coil with adjustable pole pieces on your pickguard, a K&K Definity under the bridge more on the treble side, and run both to a stereo output jack to be mixed downstream. Won't be perfect but it will be good and won't drive you crazy.

And for amps, I really prefer the Schertler Jam 200 over the AER 60. Would recommend trying both before you commit.

I don't really use my Definity any more. Bit of a thin sound really. In combination with the magnetic pickup it was OK. In the end I just got tired of having to use two channels and EQ'ing for a sound that was so-so.

I've ordered the Djangobucker BTW and will post a sound clip when I get it. I was using the old single coil model before, which sounds much like a Stimer pickup.

It's striking that in the year 2017 it's still hard to find a decent pickup solution for acoustic instruments.

**Spook410** · 06-26-2017, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

It's striking that in the year 2017 it's still hard to find a decent pickup solution for acoustic instruments.

I'm not all that fond of the Definity either but prefer it to a piezo bridge as something to mix in with a regular pickup to open the sound up. A Grace Design Felix goes a long way towards making dual source easy to live with.

Actually my final solution has been to drop a Sunrise magnetic pickup into an oval hole archtop. It has to be shimmed up a bit but works well otherwise. Of course it takes a good sized oval to mount it, weighs a ton, and absolutely requires a very good preamp. Still, in spite of the compromises, it's relatively easy to live with and sounds good for the sorts of things I play.

**Max405** · 06-26-2017, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Spook410

Snip..
The K&K Definity works OK, super easy to install, and it's cheap. Mine takes a lot of EQ dialing making me appreciate the Empress ParaEQ. I've never really bonded with mine but even if it doesn't work out you're not out much. Just try it under a few different places under the bridge. It can make quite a difference.

Acoustic strings over a Kent Armstrong hand wound have a nice sound. Through a good acoustic amp night/day from a polytone.

So since you don't have a soundhole to drop an acoustic magnetic pickup into, my recommendation would be acoustic strings, a full range humbucker or single coil with adjustable pole pieces on your pickguard, a K&K Definity under the bridge more on the treble side, and run both to a stereo output jack to be mixed downstream. Won't be perfect but it will be good and won't drive you crazy.

Spook, Great advice man. Really.
I wish I had something to add here.
I had the Definity and like spook said, it was OK. It NEEDS a good preamp to sound good. I would avoid the little budget preamp they sell for it. Because it doesn't really translate to a big sound. And once in a while, it freaks out a little. I was in a recording studio one time and I got a Canadian Radio Station through mine. And I was in Montclair New Jersey!

Joe D.

**christianm77** · 06-26-2017, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Spook410

I'm not all that fond of the Definity either but prefer it to a piezo bridge as something to mix in with a regular pickup to open the sound up. A Grace Design Felix goes a long way towards making dual source easy to live with.

Actually my final solution has been to drop a Sunrise magnetic pickup into an oval hole archtop. It has to be shimmed up a bit but works well otherwise. Of course it takes a good sized oval to mount it, weighs a ton, and absolutely requires a very good preamp. Still, in spite of the compromises, it's relatively easy to live with and sounds good for the sorts of things I play.

The Krivo pickups are neat magnetic solutions that don't require an oval hole. They are also super thin.

I don't work for them btw. It's just nice to have something that's easy to use. Might be a faff to use them in combination with a piezo though. I suppose you could permantly install one

**fabiansey** · 06-26-2017, 03:27 PM

Does the Krivo work with acoustic strings?

**christianm77** · 06-26-2017, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by fabiansey

Does the Krivo work with acoustic strings?

Yes they are designed for them

**wengr** · 06-27-2017, 05:16 PM

Do you have a dedicated stage monitor and mix? If so maybe skip the amp and when you select your pickups/mics, just get a capable pre. That way it's easier to have the controls within reach, and it's less to lug. And depending on the wedge, probably sound better too.

**campusfive** · 06-28-2017, 01:17 PM

Thanks for the kind words above, guys.

I've used my mic setup on well over a 100 gigs, and it's worked way better than I would've expected initially.
And I was using a mic on a stand before that, and that had way more problems than the clip on.
That said, the mute switch thing is essential, because when changing charts, or putting the guitar down, it might put the mic in position to feedback.

**Greentone** · 06-28-2017, 04:30 PM

Attend closely to what Jonathan Stout suggests. He steadily fronts both large and small bands, these days, using an acoustic archtop. He has sussed out the vagaries of mic'-ing an acoustic archtop under various real world situations over and over. His views are gold.

I've played acoustic archtop publicly in combos of various sizes. Fortunately, for me, I have played in show bands in good rooms while producing music to accompany plays. The audience is seated and quiet. In this circumstance I have found that an un-mic'ed acoustic archtop (30s Gibson L50 like the one in the movie "Sweet and Lowdown") has worked well for me, even with horns. This is great because the character of the guitar is fully retained.

In a more typical venue--people talking and clattering cutlery on plates--an acoustic only, without any amplification, would not likely cut it unless it was Freddie Green's 18" Gretsch with mile-high action (and you had Freddie Green's hands).

So, listen to Mr. Stout.

**christianm77** · 06-28-2017, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Attend closely to what Jonathan Stout suggests. He steadily fronts both large and small bands, these days, using an acoustic archtop. He has sussed out the vagaries of mic'-ing an acoustic archtop under various real world situations over and over. His views are gold.

I've played acoustic archtop publicly in combos of various sizes. Fortunately, for me, I have played in show bands in good rooms while producing music to accompany plays. The audience is seated and quiet. In this circumstance I have found that an un-mic'ed acoustic archtop (30s Gibson L50 like the one in the movie "Sweet and Lowdown") has worked well for me, even with horns. This is great because the character of the guitar is fully retained.

In a more typical venue--people talking and clattering cutlery on plates--an acoustic only, without any amplification, would not likely cut it unless it was Freddie Green's 18" Gretsch with mile-high action (and you had Freddie Green's hands).

So, listen to Mr. Stout.

Acoustically - a guitar is ultimately a guitar. 18", 16" doesn't matter if the audience is noisy or if the acoustics are wrong. And the register of speech is the same (say 500 Hz or so) that the guitar is trying to project in.

With all due respect to Jonathan, I have had very little success myself with lavelier style mics, and I have gigged *a lot* playing this type of music professionally - BUT - I haven't tried anything high end. Also I think your specific situation governs whether or not this is practical:

- are you the bandleader?
- how is the drummer playing?
- what kind of gig is it?
- what are the acoustics like?
- has the sound engineer ever heard a jazz record?
And so on

My situation - playing in bands as a sideman where the leader wants the guitar to fill out the sound of the band etc - has been different.

So my advice would be - attend carefully the advice of Mr Stout, but also get a Krivo or some other less acoustic but more feedback resistant option as a backup for when you need to play a bar gig or something.

Actually one band I work with has basically forbidden me from experimenting with mics due to feedback haha. So I say '**** it' and play a Gibson ES175 in that band which everyone is happy with. Not exactly period correct :-)

But one day I will suck it up and try a DPA. My cellist uses one, and it seems to work well.

BTW I have had some great results with a boom condensor mic and a *sympathetic sound guy*. This mythical beast seems mostly to inhabit the continental Northern European swing dance festival, and can be identified by their fine beard.

**christianm77** · 06-28-2017, 05:00 PM

As a side point, I know many great gypsy and swing style players who basically always have terrible or barely audible sound on bar gigs because they use lavelier mics or other feedback sensitive solutions.

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

I did watch this video on amplification where two Parisian GJ players basically said, 'don't bother trying to amplify a Selmer-Macaferri, get an electric for lead' which made me laugh. Not sure I'd agree, but the problems of amplifying a Sel-Mac and an Archtop IMO are similar, and putting a Stimer on a Macaferri for instance is basically turning that guitar into an electric.

Basically the way it works is, the most acoustic and hi-fi you sound is, the more likely feedback will be. There's really no escaping this in my experience.

Another key point is that if you are looking to give the guitar a slight lift for rhythm and the occasional Allan Reuss style chord solo that's a bit different to amplifying it to the levels where you can pay shredding Gypsy lead.

If you really want to avoid the magnetic sound, the most feedback resistant pickup I've come across for archtops is the K&K definity. It's not brilliant, but it works (best through a PA in my experience)

**jzjazz** · 09-28-2017, 06:48 PM

I'm playing a 175 through a Princeton right now and I'm completely happy with the sound when it comes to my instrumental band (with tenor sax, db and drums).

But I'm playing pretty often with vocals and also pretty often - without drums (trio with double bass and voc) and the 175 isn't working perfectly in such aplications. It does fine, but we're playing a lof of swing tunes where the guitar takes most of the rhythm job. So what I'd like is to have a second guitar for such aplications which gives a lot of acoustic attack and sound WHEN AMPLIFIED. I know I could take a guitar which is loud acoustically and blend both - amplified and acoustic, but this is too much trouble. These are usually very small venues where we put only the vocal on speakers - guitar and bas are fine from their amps.

To make it even more clear, I'm looking for a sound like this:

(Anthony's Eastman Pisano is miced, it doesn't sound like that amplified-only, I've had one)

Any chance to achieve that without using a mic a acoustically-loud archtop?

I've had a D'Aspiranta/Peerless NY and two Eastmans (803 and Pisano) in the past and these were the closest to this feel. The floating pickup might be an important factor. But this still wasn't it. Maybe something completely different? A rhythm chief? Maybe you know of something that I don't know of

PS. I played two archtops with a piezo (Martin Taylor Yamaha and something else) and I didn't like it at all. Piezo sounds like piezo to me, not like an acoustic instrument

**neatomic** · 09-28-2017, 07:04 PM

type of string you use, and the setup ( ie.string height.action. neck bow) of the guitar are super important aspects

there are ways to get a more acoustic tone out of a 175...and there are ways to get it to sound better amplified.

i've had solid body guitars that had more acoustic resonance than thinlines...

the magic of guitars is that they all sound different..depending on the most infinitesimal nuances...

but start with strings and guitar setup...no reason why you can't get everything you want out of a 175

jim hall would always offer to play "acoustically"...if he was having amp problems...so the difference between a mic'ed amp or a mic'ed guitar meant little to him!!! he still got his tone!!!...

take it from the maestro!

cheers

**ThatRhythmMan** · 09-28-2017, 07:44 PM

I agree with a lot of what neatomic says, but for a magnetic pickup amplified guitar, I get the most acoustic sound out of my ‘40 L5 with a DeArmond 1100 that has a neck mount.

**jzjazz** · 09-29-2017, 08:16 AM

Thanks to both of you, but:
Neatomic - the thing is that I like my 175 as is. It's perefect so electrically and mellow for what I play in my main band, so I don't want round wound and high action there. I've also come across an old video of mine, playing a Eastman 803CE in a guitar duo in a small restaurant and the comping sounded so much more acoustic that what I'm able to achieve now, regardless of Thomstik flats and low action on that guitar at that time and a not-so-bright henriksen jazzamp. I doubt I can reach that with any setup on the 175, moreover I want to go beyond that sound - even more acoustic (otherwise I'd just buy another Eastman).

ThatRhythmMan - I'm sure you do, but the price :-) Since it's not going to be my main guitar, I'd like to spend maybe 1500Euro (used), I don't want it to be more expensive than my 175

**dconeill** · 09-29-2017, 09:09 AM

If you don't like piezos but you want an acoustic guitar sound, perhaps the solution is an internal mic. Many flattop players use an internal mic or a combination of piezo and internal mic.

Another option might be a Taylor T5. I don't have one as I couldn't justify the expense, but when I tried one I was surprised how versatile it was.

**omphalopsychos** · 09-29-2017, 09:16 AM

I know you said no piezo but may I ask how you amplified the piezo? Did you have a preamp? Did you have an acoustic amp? I have a Pisano with an undersaddle piezo. It took some time for me to figure it out but I've managed to get good blended sounds with it. I would never play the piezo alone but it's definitely the most acoustic sounding electric setup I've played.

**omphalopsychos** · 09-29-2017, 09:57 AM

Here you go. My playing is nothing, but both of these were recorded with a humbucker and a piezo (k&k definity). No mic involved at all.

**omphalopsychos** · 09-29-2017, 10:04 AM

Sorry for the multiple posts. For some reason I couldn't embed both links. On this one, there are 3 separate clips:
1) Blended K&K and Humbucker
2) Humbucker only
3) K&K only

**ThatRhythmMan** · 09-29-2017, 10:13 AM

Recommending that you get a 1940 L5 wasn’t my intention. Although, I guess I could see why one might think so. There are options that cost far less. My thinking is that it’s mostly an acoustic archtop combined with the 1100 that’s doing it.

I also have a 1946 Epiphone Blackstone that I bought for $500 because if it’s horrible refinish job (it sounds amazing and is a great player though). I picked up a vintage DeArmond 1000 monkey on a stick for $200 and put on it. It doesn’t have the same sound qualities of the L5, but for a total of $700 US, it comes awfully close for a fraction of the price. I wonder if I used a neck mount if it would come even closer.

**artdecade** · 09-29-2017, 10:27 AM

Look into an L-50. It is a great rhythm guitar and you can toss a DeArmond pickup on it if you want, but you should be able to cut through without it.

**Woody Sound** · 09-29-2017, 10:41 AM

There are some small mic systems that clip on to the tailpiece, I think. I'm Pretty sure forum member Campus Five (Jonahan Stout) uses one.

**ThatRhythmMan** · 09-29-2017, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Woody Sound

There are some small mic systems that clip on to the tailpiece, I think. I'm Pretty sure forum member Campus Five (Jonahan Stout) uses one.

Jonathan definitely uses one.

**jzjazz** · 09-29-2017, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by omphalopsychos

Sorry for the multiple posts. For some reason I couldn't embed both links. On this one, there are 3 separate clips:
1) Blended K&K and Humbucker
2) Humbucker only
3) K&K only

Thank you, big help! Sounds pretty good to my ears. Do you have something where you strumm chords (fourths like Freddie Green or something like that)?

**omphalopsychos** · 09-29-2017, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by jzjazz

Thank you, big help! Sounds pretty good to my ears. Do you have something where you strumm chords (fourths like Freddie Green or something like that)?

Nothing recorded, unfortunately. But I definitely think this is a feasible solution for that. For example, keep the piezo volume low, and roll back a bit on the humbucker volume when you're going into the 4-to-the-bar comping. The magnetic pickup will still fill in the low end and the mids, while the piezo will get you the snare-ish attack on those chords. In terms of EQ, I scoop the mids out completely (i.e. as much as I can) from the piezo. The reason for this is that I only use it blended. I don't want to hear piezo over the sound of the humbucker. By scooping the mids I let the piezo occupy the frequency range not taken by the humbucker. I hate the piezo *quack* as much as anyone else does.

I will add one other point. The rig is not totally straightforward. I really don't think a piezo will sound good coming out of a Princeton or a Deluxe. Some people seem to like it, but I've never been a fan. So your real options are to pack a two channel solid state amp (which is what I've been doing) or plug the piezo into the sound system via a preamp with EQ. I realize this may be a bit more complicated that what you were hoping to do.