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I have always wanted a high wattage amp, yet since I started playing guitar I have seen very little practical use for them. Everyone I have seen live uses smaller amps with microphones into the PA system. So when would I need, say a Fender Twin Reverb, and would I be able to crank it up? We are only talking Jazz here, no Hard Rock or Metal. Thanks.
Last edited by AlsoRan; 12-28-2011 at 07:38 PM.
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12-28-2011 06:36 PM
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Last Summer I played some live gigs without a PA.
In that case it is better to have a powerful amp.
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Lot of the newer amps like the Fender superchamp XD come with a direct out to a PA system. I would assume that this would negate the need for high wattage amps. I used my old line 6 POD on a few occasions and had no problem having myself heard in the midst of keyboards and electronic drums.
Probably the one advantage with a high wattage amp would be the 'headroom' hence making it quieter at lower volumes.
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I see Twin Reverbs for sale pretty cheap, as low as $600...its tempting
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I have played septet and octect gigs with no PA. It's important not only to have some watts but also a big cabinet - a twin sounds loud not only because it's 85w but also because it's a big open-back 2x12, it fills a room.
A lot of times people also avoid monitors to make the sound part easier so you might need the power to fill the stage. I have been using some booster before the amp also and it works quite well.
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Thanks for the great information!
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Good amps given us good sounds from at the low volume.
Fender: from the about V2.2(1 is Min).
Just the volume settings
Home ; V 2,2 ～ 2.7
Stage ; V 2.7 ～ 3 (with PA) ～
Any good amps available, just set the enough lebel for good sounds and not loud levels.(not as rock music)
I'm using Twin Reverb, Vibrolux Reverb, Polytone Mini brute Ⅱ, etc same as not loud levels with good sounds.
A good way: always with same amps, stage and home, settings know how, conditions etc good for you.
Please get the good amps for your jazz life.Last edited by kawa; 12-29-2011 at 10:12 PM.
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Thanks, Kawa.
Originally Posted by kawa
I can see that there is a place for a powerful amp in my arsenal, as long as it sounds good. I can also see that you professionals evaluate venues you will play at so you know what you will need to bring. It sounds like a "no-brainer" but I know guys that just show up at gigs without knowing the layout of the venue.
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It depends. For tube amps you want to tailor the output to the situation. You often need to turn them up to, say 4 out of 10 or thereabouts, to hit the 'sweet spot' where the output tubes are cooking just a bit to get that 'warm' sound that tubes are known for. Often, 30 to 50 watts RMS fits the bill. With solid state, you can't have too much output power. It translates into clean headroom, and you never want to hear a solid-state power amp clipping (overdriving the output stage). At least that's my view.
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I've used a Marshall 100w head through a 1x12 cabinet, very nice jazz tone. On the other hand, my buddy was in an Aerosmith tribute band with a Fender twin and never turned the volume past 3 using a rat.
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Some amps even have a half-power switch for added versatility. Some tube amps really need to be turned up to sound good but sometimes that's good for blues / rock tones because it sounds more compressed and on the verge of breakup but not as good for jazz.
The other day I got a really nice jazz tone with a Twin on 3 or 4 - which surprised me, I thought you would need to get on 5 or 6 to get that. Maybe that one was special
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Jorge, I have noted your many posts on the Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue and how Fender seems to be skimping on it in production these days. Now you have me wondering if they are not doing the same with the Twin Reverb. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Some amps even have a half-power switch for added versatility. Some tube amps really need to be turned up to sound good but sometimes that's good for blues / rock tones because it sounds more compressed and on the verge of breakup but not as good for jazz.
The other day I got a really nice jazz tone with a Twin on 3 or 4 - which surprised me, I thought you would need to get on 5 or 6 to get that. Maybe that one was special
This begs the question, are recently produced Twin Reverbs as good as those made 8 or 9 years ago? Is anything as good as it used to be (including guitar pedals) or are companies engineering money-saving shorcuts that significantly reduce quality?
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Good question - I think some guys here can probably help you a lot more than me. I have played several RIs in stores and I always felt they were too bright. An old teacher of mine also had one I never bounded with. But this one was really awesome, mid 90s production and I am sure it's all stock... The only thing I didn't loved was the reverb.
But I also guess you have to gig a lot with Twins to really have an opinion, something I never did - it's not a bedroom amp. Some guys ask for them and like them (Kurt Rosenwinkel or Vic Juris) and others don't want them (Scofield). I think Hekselman also likes the Deluxe more.. The Deluxe seems to have a lot of fans but I have played them and seen a lot of guys playing trough them and these Deluxe RIs don't have a nice jazz tone out of the box IMO. Maybe with some tweaking
Steve Cardenas has a lot of info about gigging with Twins I think, maybe it's worth checking that out. A lot of guys end up modding their Fenders or getting some modded clones to fit them better for jazz - they are more blues / country out of the box.
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you know, for bigger amps-like a twin, or my marshalls, or even a bandmaster-piggy back or fender hot rod deville-
they are all overkill
they are heavy
and simply a pain to move
but
they do fill a room-
and while i think it more about the cab-there is a certain resonanace or airiness-even with bigger closed backs like a 2 x12 or god forbid-the 4x12
im not sure it comes across at all in the PA-mic situation
but i do hear a big difference simply playing un-mic'ed
and theres a certain luxuriousness in the bigger 12" speakers and lots of headroom -and in the case of fenders -lush reverb-bigger bass-but again-not really necessary when properly mic'ed
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I don't understand what you mean Originally Posted by stevedenver
Are you saying the sound is not nice when a microphone is put in front of them?
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I kinda went a different route. A big cabenet but moderate out put power. I use a Fender Pro Reverb. It's a 1970, but, it's been black faced. I also put it on a Sound Enhancer stand. Made a major difference for the better. The difference in mids and bottom is significant . . . and I haven't lost any of the top end highs. The amp set up sounds great with my arch tops. Really kicks butt with my strats too. As for my LP style guitars, my 2002 R9 with RS Guitar Works pots and caps sounds fantastic. I have other Reissue Lesters that sound good and a couple of H150 that sound good. But, the 2002 R9 really shines. I think it's just that the guitar has "it". The Fender Pro doesn't seem to like the hotter over wound or ceramic pups.
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sorry i was clear as mud Originally Posted by Jazz_175
what im saying is that when properly miced-a small cab can sound huge and properly balanced
better still can be straight into the board-i have done this a few times with my les paul recording gutiar and it actually works nicely and sounds rather accoustic this way-and all i need is the guitar!
but most often its onto the stage with the stuff, plug in and you play-
but, like patrick - i too most often opt for a mid way -i use a 66 BF bandmaster -with some effects like chorus and delay and i use an outboard verb tank -45 watts-closed back piggy back-with mixed celestions
i can move it fairly easily as neither the cab or head is too heavy, it has plenty of oompff-and bass -and plenty of headroom
on this particular amp=the outboard tank adds some sparkle and depth to an otherwise very dry sounding amp-i have yet to figure out why it adds the sparkle i perceive, even with minimum verb added-the tank also allows to tone down the verb tone so it can be very subtle
-plus as its closed back it is more directional and i can , with some success, sit to the side and lessen feedback -the downside, imho, is that it ony has bass and treble -nothing fancy for the eq
i have also used my tweed deluxe and for smaller rooms -it works very well -while noted for early break up-they can be controlled and have a superb warm sound so long as they are kept clean and below the break up threshold-i have not substituted the 12 ax 7 for a 12 AT 7 ! (which reduce the gain)Last edited by stevedenver; 12-30-2011 at 12:40 PM.
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A pro reverb blackface seems just perfect. There's actually a guy selling one here... but I think I will go with a custom build super reverb in a head with some custom options! But I will be using it with a 2x12 open back cabinet so it will be close to a Pro Reverb I guess.
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If you haven't been exposed to this product, you should check it out. It takes my Pro Reverb to another level. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Sound Enhancer - Home
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That thing seems great - I actually always tilt my amps, the sound just fills the room better. But that seems too big to carry to a gig; I usually use a standback amp on gigs and an AER tilt at home because they are so convenient,
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Too big to carry to a gig??? You mean you don't have a crew of roadies??? I thought you were a real pro!! ;-) But, kidding aside, I agree it is cumbersome to carry along to a gig, especially if you are traveling there in a small car. But, for those who just get totally caught up in the quest for tone . . . and who don't mind carrying another piece . . . the sound enhancement is fantastic. For me it's not a problem. I don't gig anymore and doubtthat I ever will again. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
A few months back, I had Josh Childers of Atlas Stands make me something similar. We were very carefull to change it up enough so that he wasn't exposed to any patent infringement law suits. But, its concept is similar. The one he made for me is smaller and fits my 1970 Fender Princeton Reverb perfectly. I also think that this company "Sound Enhancer" is out of business. I contacted them to order one for the Princeton. before I met Josh here on Jazz Guitar Forum. The guy who answered the phone told me they only had large one left in stock, for Fender Twin size amps and that they weren't making any more.
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At home I use either the AER tilit or just an old wood piece to lift one of my amps or my cabinets. The standback has been proven really practical at gigs, sometimes it's more about sound spreading than volume - higly recommend this cheap and light solution.
When I settle on my amps I might get something like yours to use at home, seems really great!
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In addition to room-filling clean sound, big 2 x 12 combos with lots of power are also great for folks who like to use pedals for their tone-shaping.
And they allow the guitar sound in the room to come from the amp instead of just the PA, which is often a good thing.
If you like the Pro Reverb, you can run a Twin Reverb like a Pro by removing two of the power tubes - not hard to find info on this somewhere on the inter webs. The Pro Reverb is a wonderful amp - my guitar duo partner has one that sounds great.
I have an old Ampeg VT-22 for when I want headroom up the wazoo - it's their '70s version of a Twin, but heavier and with more power. And casters.
I also have an old Twin-sized Polytone 104 (2 x 12 closed-back SS combo with tons of power) for b-flat jazz gigs in big halls where I know I'll have no control over where the amp is placed, and there will be no PA. A carpeted and draped event hall full of people talking and drinking will easily swallow up all of that sound.Last edited by Hammertone; 12-31-2011 at 02:55 AM.
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I am not so sure about that since it's usually recommended you turn off one of the speakers, turning the Twin into a 1x12... And people alse recommend rebiasing which is not that easy to do. Originally Posted by Hammertone
Twin Reverb fenderguru.com. Fender amps, mods, modifications, vintage, maintenance, tubes, speakers, schematics, blackface, silverface, jens mosbergvik.
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You bring back some fond memories. Back in the late '70s I was in a high energy top 40 horn band. I did most of the lead vocals and the rhythm guitar work. I had a VT22, the lead guitarist had a V4. With a keyboard player, sax, 'bone and trumpet, we needed amps that could cut through. The Ampegs were amazing! But, you're correct about the weight! God awful heavy! Originally Posted by Hammertone
Hey . . on another note, don't you owe me a blonde acoustic Super Eagle??
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