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This is not a simple set of circumstances.
When Fender swapped me a Princeton Reissue for the mandolin that they could no longer refinish, my wife asked me why getting another amp didn't trigger the "one in, one out" rule.
To be fair to her, the music gear is in my home office which doubles as our home theater and movie night is also amp and guitar moving night otherwise she can't see the screen. I can't honestly argue with the floor space argument and the walls are plastered with mandolins. Still, it appears that her citing the "rule" has passed so I am now thinking about how to make changes that I can reframe as some sort of consolidation.
I don't travel anywhere to play amplified instruments so all I "need" at home are a decent acoustic amp (Genz Benz Shenandoah), an electric for warm tones (Princeton) and a multi character electric for all else (thus far, the Cube has somewhat filled the bill), all of which should be light enough to carry out the the back porch to serenade the deer.
The "problem" with the Roland is that I only use the JC Clean channel because the rest of the Lead channels leave me rather unimpressed. I know I could hook up a myriad of pedals and boxes and the like to tweak the sounds from the Lead channel, but that would mean more stuff to move come movie time. If I gave the Cube 60 up, the Princeton would make the lack of the JC Lead channel a non issue.
That gets me to the Mustang III which I have viewed on a ton of Youtube channels and that looks to offer all sorts of decent modeled sounds along with internal software boxes and effects and the like (not to mentioned the very nerdy computer program that allows one to create all manner of sonic stuff (and feel creative along the way).
Anybody with experience with both of these amps who might offer an impression of the efficacy of this possible move?Last edited by bborzell; 06-14-2011 at 07:50 PM.
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06-14-2011 07:38 PM
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I'm not going to be much help here, but I am currently about to buy either a Roland Cube 80XL or a Fender Mustang 3. I had been looking at the Cube as the main choice, but now, after looking on YouTube and talking to folks here, I'm quite tempted by the extra features on the Mustang. I think it probably does have some good jazz sounds on it (I've heard a couple of things on YouTube) plus I like the apparent "tube amp" qualities it has. In terms of build quality, I think the Cube looks a bit tougher, with the closed back, and corner protection, but that could be sorted out on the Mustang.
Whichever one I go for, I'll be sure to let you know my impressions though!
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I've had a Mustang II for a few weeks now & my son has micro-cube (not exactly the comparison you are looking for but close). The Mustang sounds better on all models, especially the Fender amps. And it is definitely more versatile, a swiss-army knife in a way- it's very easy to set-up different amps/effects/cabinets in probably hundreds of permutations, and store them as presets for convenience. The Fuse software is a blast but I've found I'm settling in and using 3-4 presets most of the time ( Deluxe Reverb, Twin, and Vox with OD in front, Bassman with OD in the rack).
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I am using a Mustang II for my jazz playing and I am very satisfied with it. It has a good clean tone, has a built in tuner, very good effects (the reverb and tremolo are great), and is super light. I use it mainly with a telecaster.
The only cubes I have tried are the old Cube 60's that had the orange tolex. I did not get along with those in the show room, but I am sure the newer ones are different beasts, so the comparison is not so valid.
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Like Meggy, when amp shopping over the last few months, I had it narrowed down to the Mustang III and the Cube 80XL. I played both with different guitars and ended up with the Mustang. I like the interface and it just seemed a lot more versatile - not that I'm going to use a great deal of effects on either amp...... And the Fuse software makes it really easy to use - more time playing, less time fiddling. You can also download more models from the Fender website - I did this, tweaked for a few minutes and had 2 or 3 pretty fat sounding jazz presets. The things that really made up my mind - the Mustang came with a 2 button foot switch that works great. The $50us I would have spent for a foot switch for the Roland can go towards the optional 4 button switch Fender offers, giving you 6 altogether and a pretty mindboggling (for me anyway) variety of set up options. The drawbacks to the Fender - no looper, like the Roland, but if I ever need one, I'll just buy a pedal that will have more options than the built in Roland looper. Also, there is no default clean channel.... but it only takes a few minutes to set up a clean preset on whichever of the 12 amps the Mustang models, so, ultimately, I don't really think it's that big a deal.
I'm an electronics newb (this is my first amp that isn't a no-name, thrift store practice amp), but I did my homework shopping. To my ears and judgement, the Mustang III is a pretty good option.
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Definitely play both in the store before you purchase.
What factory presets amp models give you guys the best clean jazz sound on the Mustang? I ask because I'm trying to give this thing a shot and surppress all of my fender-spammer-conspiracy theories, but I just can't get really excited about it. I've only played the one we have at the store. Maybe something's just wrong with this particular amp.
I've tried the twin and the bassman models. Honestly, I like the modeling, and I actually prefer the reverb sound over the Roland 60XL which sits beside it. The problem is it's just so noisy. It's got this very obnoxious digital noise. It seems to want to compress no matter how hard I turn the "compression" knob toward zero. I've tried lowering the volume on the guitar end of things, lowering the 'volume' knob on the amp model and adjusting the 'master' to suit. It just wants to rock and roll.
When I play chord-melody and sustain a chord the thing has this kind of hiss "crescendo". Again, I can hear what they're trying to do with the model sounds, and I think they're almost great, but to me it's just not there yet.
To see if maybe it was just the amp, I also played around with the Mustang II. Definitely not worth bothering with. It's obvious that this interface is designed frustrate you into buying a Mustang III instead. :-) Among other things it doesn't have a "mid" knob. Do you really want to play jazz on an amp without one? It didn't have as much noise, but I think this was mostly because I just couldn't get much volume out of the clean settings anyway.
I did most of my experimenting with an inexpensive telecaster. In the end I switched to a jazzmaster?? (I think) with humbuckers thinking that maybe the pickups were part of the problem, (though they're not with the Roland). Both amps were still pretty noisy and wanted to distort.
I told the manager at the store about this thread and the suspiciously high frequency of mustang endorsements of late, (yes I'm probably paranoid) and asked him if it was just me. He said that I was not and that he just thinks mustangs "suck". He likes the Rolands. I gave it my best for about 30 minutes, today, between lessons.
If someone wants to suggest a model and some setting tweaks I could dial in to get a great jazz sound on this thing without taking one home and downloading something, I'll give it a try. I just don't think that any of the modeling amps are up to speed with clean settings yet. BTW, I'm not an analogue zealot or anything. I'm just think you can do better for the same money.
I personally think that Roland 60XL is cleaner and is a great sounding versatile amp at this price point. Playing the mustang has made me think that maybe shopping for a great reverb pedal might be the thing to do until I can spend more on an amp. The Mustang has piqued my interest in checking out the real amps these models are based on.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 06-15-2011 at 10:26 PM.
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Wow... a conspiracy theory.
Matt, that's a little harsh, don't you think.
I am very intrigued by the Mustangs too.
I've spent a few hours researching... the noise issue you mentioned has been addressed here and on a number of other forums.
Seems like there is a fairly simple fix for this.
Everything I've read indicates that you need to spend a little time "tweaking" to get the most out of these.
I like the fact that the potential seems to be there.
We are talking about a $300 amp.
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There is a known issue on some amps with digital artifacts. If you get a good one, it's not a worry. See this long thread here. Once the digital noise gets resolved on the problem units, it will be a great amp. BTW it seems to be only limited to the III (which sadly is the one i own, and don't want to return--love the sound, features and price). Also, the headphone and USB output don't have the artifact issue.
Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
As far as music-store-employee conspiracy theories, mine are:
- Many people actually like the sound-to-value ratio of the amps, and they provide lots of features people want. There is a thread so long at the Gear Page that it had to be broken into 2 parts because there are so many fans of it. That is a group that is not easily impressed. The Telecaster forum is also on board with the amp. That is the kind of fervor only a good product can generate. I stop listening to music store employees as soon as they start trying to be my buddy.
- You might not like the sound of it
- You are turned off by the digital artifacts (with very good reason!)
As far as models, just dial in a basic Deluxe Reverb or Princeton (dial backwards, they are around 90-something), and turn up the reverb knob to taste. Most of the heavily-effected presets are worthless to me, but like the sound-sculpting potential.
If you want a real tube amp, the Deluxe Reverb and/or Princeton Reverb reissues are pretty great.
For me i am a Fender snob (owned a DR for 20 years, and got sick of the tweaking and cost of tubes) and like the sound of the Mustang, and think the III will get fixed soon enough. If you like the Cube, get it. It sounds good to you now, and you don't have to wait for bug fixes. Hoorah choices!Last edited by spiral; 06-15-2011 at 11:37 PM.
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Yeah, I admit I'm crazy. It's been a long week. It is the internet after all. Originally Posted by RonD
People just seem to talk about them so much lately and it seems to be mostly positive. I've probably just missed the threads that address what I'm talking about.
As far as good buzz on other forums, I can understand the appeal to non-jazzers where the noise issue maybe isn't as much of an issue, but not being able to dial in a good clean sound seems like a deal-breaker for playing jazz.
So are you're saying that it is just this particular amp? Do I need to tell the guy to call the dealer and send this one back? And what's up with the II not having a 'mid' knob? :-) Originally Posted by spiral
Like I said, I like the models themselves. Without the noise issues it would probably be a great value.
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Thanks for the link. I'm kind of surprised Fender isn't doing more for the customers whose issues haven't been resolved with this. Originally Posted by spiral
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Jazz players don't care more about sound quality. Some of the amps are broken, guitarist from all genres have noted this. Distortion doesn't cover up the aliasing. It is an issue regardless of style or amp settings. The ones that like it don't have the issue, or have terrible hearing. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
I can't say for sure but i have been following a few threads about it and can say this: all Mustangs had an issue, there was a firmware update, it fixed 80% (i totally made that number up) of people's amps (all models), some Mustang III owners still have issues, while other Mustang III owners are happily playing all sorts of music with no digital artifacts. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
As for the Mid knob, that is a reason to go with the III, as well as the open back, dedicated Reverb knob, and ability to edit most parameters on the amp itself.Last edited by spiral; 06-16-2011 at 12:29 AM.
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I'm suspicious of those Mustang amps too. Probably commie technology with mind-control computer viruses planted inside. I'd wear my tinfoil hat with that thing if I were you
Seriously, though, the consensus seems to be that the Mustangs can get a decent sound for jazz, but not out of the box. Which, to me, is a pretty important consideration. With the Cube, you just turn it on and it is clean. It behaves like a solid state amp when you want it to. The Mustang, on the other hand, attempts to emulate tube sounds and isn't content with just being a solid state amp. I would expect noise from a higher input signal on them, that is what tube amps do. But it's going to do it in a weird, not quite right, commie/digital kind of way. So, just get a new Roland. For freedom.
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Tomorrow's my day off, but I may have to swing by at some point and try that firmware upgrade. It would be cool if it was in that 80%. Thanks for the heads up.
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Originally Posted by histind
I'm suspicious of those Mustang amps too. Probably commie technology with mind-control computer viruses planted inside. I'd wear my tinfoil hat with that thing if I were you
Seriously, though, the consensus seems to be that the Mustangs can get a decent sound for jazz, but not out of the box. Which, to me, is a pretty important consideration. With the Cube, you just turn it on and it is clean. It behaves like a solid state amp when you want it to. The Mustang, on the other hand, attempts to emulate tube sounds and isn't content with just being a solid state amp. I would expect noise from a higher input signal on them, that is what tube amps do. But it's going to do it in a weird, not quite right, commie/digital kind of way. So, just get a new Roland. For freedom.
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In my view, conspiracy theories are usually fomented by people who have an rather inflated view of the human potential for successfully formulating complex sets of events and/or interactions in service of persuading or otherwise influencing average people to do their bidding or adopt their particular point of view. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
My take on the matter is that the vast majority of people are not willing or able to set such wheels in motion; nor do they need to be given the sheer randomness of most events that appear, on the surface, to lead to orchestrated outcomes.
Are gas prices in the US higher because of some conspiracy? No, people who set gas prices do not need to conspire. They do what they do because they can hide behind the complexity of global events and interactions knowing that when the heat gets high enough, they can simply drop prices until people quit whining and then start the cycle over again. Ne need to conspire; just capitalize on complexity.
As for the question I originally raised, my motivation is simple. I wanna buy another amp. I've had the Cube 60 for three years and its jazz offerings don't come close to my Princeton reissue. The rest of the models don't appeal top me so I'm a lookin' for something else.
If the Mustang screeches, whines, hums or otherwise produces sounds that interfere with my appreciation of the musical sounds it was designed to create, then I won't buy one. But, if that is the case, then it won't be a decision based upon trumped up reviews or bad tone quality, but rather poor build quality. No amount of unwarranted Fender love will change any of that for me.
Last edited by bborzell; 06-16-2011 at 01:54 AM.
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My Mustang III thankfully has none of the issues talked about above - at least not that I can tell... I am pretty new to the whole thing, this is my first amp, but I have a pretty good idea what things should sound like. Following the detailed descriptions of the problems, I can't hear anything amiss - and I didn't have to run the firmware update.
There is not a factory preset that has a jazz tone. I downloaded a few user-generated presets from the Fender site and got them sounding good (to my ears) pretty quick - just typed in 'jazz' as a keyword, and a couple of options came up. Pretty easy and painless. Also got a nice 'clean channel' sound the same way. You do have to register and create an account on the Fender site, though.
Matt - I don't work for Fender, but if they want to give me some free stuff for saying nice things about their product, I'd take it - always kind of wanted an American Strat to get my SRV on with..... It wouldn't surprise me to find out that Fender had 'sleeper' reps posting on forums - it's a dog eat dog world and it's free advertising. I'm a complete newb though, and probably don't know what I'm talking about half the time - not a likely candidate for covert marketing recruitment.... also means you should take what I say with a grain of amateur salt....
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I tried the Mustang yesterday - didn't have my archtop, but used a tele and a semi-acoustic the shop had. Instantly super impressed with the clean, great for jazz, sounds I could get. The valve/tube amp models really are very good indeed used clean. I could not discern any issues with the "fizz" problem that Spiral got (hope you can get that fixed soon Spiral Originally Posted by 23skidoo
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I feel I am getting an amp which does jazz very well, if differently from my Polytone, but which also has tremendous versatility beyond that. A touch of chorus/reverb etc added to the clean tones was very nice for some more modern sounds in the jazz vein. The bang for the buck is amazing when I think about it. Like 23skidoo, I'm probably going to buy the 4-way footswitch before long, and have come to the same conclusion regarding the looper issue. I'm going back to buy the amp later today, it's great IMO.
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Meggy, I assume that you prefer the sound of the Mustang over the Roland 80XL, which you reviewed in another thread. Can you elaborate on the differences? Thanks!
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Well, I tried the Mustang 3 yesterday, and I'm buying it today. The Roland is simpler and more straightforward to operate, but I still had a nice clean jazz sound to my ears, within a minute or two, without even knowing how the system worked. I'm sure given a little effort on the user's part, the issue of ease of use would not be an issue anymore. Honestly, I'm just a normal chap buying an amp, no conspiracy on my part, but I ended up preferring the Mustan!g. Just my opinion though, try before you buy in the end Originally Posted by histind
I'm suspicious of those Mustang amps too. Probably commie technology with mind-control computer viruses planted inside. I'd wear my tinfoil hat with that thing if I were you
Seriously, though, the consensus seems to be that the Mustangs can get a decent sound for jazz, but not out of the box. Which, to me, is a pretty important consideration. With the Cube, you just turn it on and it is clean. It behaves like a solid state amp when you want it to. The Mustang, on the other hand, attempts to emulate tube sounds and isn't content with just being a solid state amp. I would expect noise from a higher input signal on them, that is what tube amps do. But it's going to do it in a weird, not quite right, commie/digital kind of way. So, just get a new Roland. For freedom.
I was surprised too, but yes, in the end I preferred the sound of the Mustang for jazz, plus also I feel it has even more flexibility than the Roland. Not to say that the Roland isn't very nice for jazz - it absolutely is, but the tube amp models on the Fender I found very nice indeed - all the Fender amp models seemed capable of producing a good clean jazz tone, with (to my ears) a nice tube amp quality in there as well. The JC120 model on the cube is very good indeed, but doesn't have that "tubey" vibe. I liked the on board effects on the Fender too, and the programability of it (if that is a word! Originally Posted by rschwa9966
) Do try them both I would advise though - this is a subjective judgement after all.
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Thanks, Meggy, for all your informative posts on these two amp threads.
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Sorry to all for offending. My highly hyphenated conspiracy comment was my tongue-in-cheek expression of my frustration at seeing so many discussions about an amp I couldn't get a good sound out of. Finding out that this amp is probably one of the many messed up models at least makes me feel like I'm not completely crazy. Originally Posted by 23skidoo
I think if you guys could hear the one I've been demoing you'd understand my bewilderment at the positive press. However, I did point out in my original post that, buzzing aside, I liked the Fender modelling better than the Roland, which I have heartily endorsed up to now.
I'll see what I can do with the firmware update at the store today.
God bless,
Matt
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Well I've just got home with my Mustang III - I did give it a good test in the shop and couldn't hear any unwanted digital noise or fizz, so hopefully I'm OK. Maybe in the UK things are better, since we have 240 volts electricity, just a thought. I think there obviously has been an issue with some early produced Mustang 3's. So I would say the advice for now has to be to procede with caution, and make sure you get a good one. If it doesn't seem right, don't buy it. I really hope those having trouble with theirs can get the issues sorted out soon, it's no fun at all spending your hard-earned and being left with problems.
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This is hard to say, but in all fairness to the good people on this forum, I feel I have to. As soon as I tried the amp at home, I could hear the fizz quite clearly - to me it makes the amp unusable. It's really hard to understand as I tried it carefully in the shop and heard nothing wrong (it was a quite day too), indeed it sounded great, but now all of a sudden, things are not right. I feel pretty stupid about this, and hope no-one feels miss-led. The amp is going back to the shop in the morning, I hope they will be OK about this (they are a reputable place anyway), and I can always order a cube80xl through them instead. This is pretty gutting really, sorry guys! Originally Posted by Meggy
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Sorry to hear that the Mustang makes the fizz. I hope your dealer does the right thing. Originally Posted by Meggy
This is hard to say, but in all fairness to the good people on this forum, I feel I have to. As soon as I tried the amp at home, I could hear the fizz quite clearly - to me it makes the amp unusable. It's really hard to understand as I tried it carefully in the shop and heard nothing wrong (it was a quite day too), indeed it sounded great, but now all of a sudden, things are not right. I feel pretty stupid about this, and hope no-one feels miss-led. The amp is going back to the shop in the morning, I hope they will be OK about this (they are a reputable place anyway), and I can always order a cube80xl through them instead. This is pretty gutting really, sorry guys!
I've been following the series of threads and comments on this issue over at the Fender forum and I am taken by the fact that all the comments I have read from users as well as those from Fender reps have focused on the digital signal processing (as in sound treatment) and firmware upgrades as opposed to the basic electrical power circuitry as in the preamp, for example.
Is everyone assuming that the Fender Mustang III preamp stage is flawless with respect to creating unwanted sound artifacts?
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Sorry. That sucks. Don't feel bad. It's good you discovered it and can take it back. Originally Posted by Meggy
I tried one at the store that was the same manufacturing date as mine but sounded fine but didn't want to haul it on the bus home just to find it was not working like the one i have. Others have reported this as well and people are speculating about dirty wall power, low voltage, etc. There is a big issue and Fender is burning lots of goodwill while there are threads with unsatisfied users that continue to grow, yet they don't address it. If you aren't totally soured the II is supposed to not have the issue, but for me, i'm just staying tuned until they say there is a fix or recall. The good news is you found an amp you really like and that is all that matters.
There are all sorts of theories floating around. A recent one on the Fender board was that the power amp circuit was pulling in interference from the display, since the headphones and USB don't have the issue, and the I and II don't either, this is entirely plausible to me. Originally Posted by bborzell
Last edited by spiral; 06-16-2011 at 08:51 PM.
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