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Originally Posted by dreamingJazz
Getting into straight jazz properly is a whole 'nother animal and is almost like learning another instrument. You're going to have to re-learn and correct a lot of things you did as a 'rock hack'. That is my experience and opinion...
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06-19-2020 11:33 AM
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I’d agree with that. I’d say that I think it helps your playing overall in the long run, but it’s not something you can really just ‘tack on’?
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So where is dreamingjazz after all this? We got hung up on the blues somewhat, probably my fault.
I think I'd tell him to take a tune that he really likes, because that does help, and learn to negotiate his 2-5's, then what to do over a major chord (or a minor if it's in minor) then slot the rest in after that (dims, etc).
Something like that anyway. It's a helluva task.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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What i do is this:
i purchased iReal pro.
download some interesting chordprogressions and try and improvise over it. Over and over again. After a while i come up with some interesting things. After a while i don't feel like i'm playing in a certain key, but do my thing. Once the progression is in my head i 'know' when to play a certain note or lick.
it helps a lot.
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It seems dreamingjazz's favorite venue is the gear section, which probably says it all :-) He posts there regularly.
As if having the 'right' guitar with the 'right' strings and the 'right' amp is going to make someone a good player... dream on
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Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
'It's better to play something simple and real within the form than try to imitate advanced stuff you don't understand'
'Well, we don't have time... we enjoy messing around...'
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Originally Posted by dreamingJazz
Let's look at G, D, Em, C and see what could be done with it using pentatonic scales and their combinations.
Things to know about...
Notice the pairs of major and minor pents that are the same notes:
G major pentatonic (same as E minor pentatonic)
D major pentatonic (same as B minor pentatonic)
C major pentatonic (same as A minor pentatonic)
Notice that if you combine the notes of major and minor pentatonic you get dorian with added major 3rd
For example, G major pentatonic plus G minor pentatonic is G dorian plus major 3rd
G A B D E G plus G A# C D F G equals G A A# B C D E F G where B is the major third
For reference, let's call this combined scale form "dorian3"
In rock and blues, there are basically three approaches - minor, major, and dominant.
Minor approach rock/blues of G D Em C - Few possibilities, this is typical of minor mood approaches
G - play G minor pentatonic
D - play G minor pentatonic or play D minor pentatonic
Em - play E minor pentatonic
C - play C major pentatonic
Major approach rock/blues of G D Em C - May play G major pent all the way through or change through the others
G - play G major pentatonic
D - play G major pentatonic or play D major pentatonic
Em - play G major pentatonic or play E minor pentatonic
C - play G major pentatonic or play C major pentatonic
Dominant approach rock/blues of G D Em C - Lots more possibilities
G - play G dorian3 (G major or minor pentatonic, or mix freely from both)
D - play G dorian3 or D dorian3, or both*
Em - play E dorian3
C - play C dorian3
*notice that combining G dorian3 and D dorian3 is
G maj pent plus G min pent plus D maj pent plus D min pent
So this may be thought as mixing freely from either G or D major or minor pentatonic
or G A A# B C D E F F#
That should be enough to work on for a while.
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This thread has spun out into every direction offering little direction to dreamingJazz...
He needs to start pretty well from scratch... and he's said he hasn't got any time. And he's not responding here any more. Not recently anyway. Last one on the whole forum was about 3 weeks ago.
By the way, what's 'Dorian 3'? I know what Dorian means but I've never heard of Dorian 3, or Dorian 1 or 2 either!
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Pents are easy to hear, easy to see, and easy to play... but hard to manipulate, coordinate, etc. with respect to harmonic execution (if one is trying to go in the jazz direction). As I wrote, dorian3 is a made up name for ease of reference; combining pentatonic major and pentatonic minor results in dorian with an added major third, so in an immediate harmonic situation where one may freely mix between, e.g., G major and minor pentatonic, the short form of indicating that is G dorian3. This makes things a little easier to conceive when the next step is an immediate harmonic situation where one may freely mix between, e.g., D major pentatonic or D minor pentatonic or G major pentatonic or G minor pentatonic... easier to think of as superposition of D dorian3 and G dorian3.
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This could be your first stop: Free Jazz Guitar Lessons
Religious music is not unknown in jazz, gospel tunes always found a way into some spirited jazz musician's repertoire. This is a fine example Feelin' the Spirit - Wikipedia
To get out of the trap of pentatonics and scales in general I did follow that route:
- Learn to phrase in a "jazzy" way with whatever material you have in your box (the pentatonic scale) – Grant Green is a wonderful and accessible example as is Kenny Burrell – Listen!
- Learn songs – you can start with spirituals and jazz blues which should not overtrain your harmonic knowledge – how about Midnight Blue by Kenny Burrell as a start? There is even a transcription of the head and even of his solo available online (Google it) – very nice and very accessible. Try to understand the logic of the lines he plays with regard to the chords. Yes, the best way to learn is to figure it out yourself! Listen to the phrasing as much as to the actual notes he plays. Now you are already on the road for more sophisticated material – but take your time.
- Learn arpeggios (basically play the notes that are in the chord) – and learn to incorporate them into your playing as soon as you learned them.
- Learn "jazz scales" like these 7 Easy Jazz Guitar Scales For Beginners and also the "bebop scale" – and again learn to use the material musically as soon as you figured out the fingering.
- Add passing notes, chromatics etc. to glue it all together
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Originally Posted by pauln
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No, that was supposed to enlighten you and the question you asked because of not reading the whole post.
To enlighten the OP, I went step by step including an example.
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Yeah I’m not sure there’s much point trying to teach someone until you know how they play
i actually think there’s far too much of that on JGO, and I have to work hard not to end up doing it myself.
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What's going on here? You've posted videos watched by countless people, of how they play you know nothing, but when someone who has played for 20 years, plays a regular church gig with other musicians, takes guitar lessons, and requests help on this jazz forum, you're "not sure there’s much point trying to teach someone until you know how they play"?
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Originally Posted by pauln
I think it's kind of a non helpful thing to do and I'd like to do it less.
I just feel it clogs everything up, and although I FEEL my info is helpful, I look at the average thread and think OMG.
I might post a YT vid if I feel it's relevant to the thread, but yeah. Not sure if its the best thing. You can make information available; but that's not really teaching. The internet is FULL of information. More information is not the answer. Actually what students really need is someone to help them decide what to concentrate on.
When people post a little playing I feel the advice gets more specific and helpful; tends to be more coherent and is MUCH less likely to go down the usual rabbit holes we go down.
Of course I reserve the right to totally fail at this haha. But I think it's a good policy for JGO regulars to observe to ask players to post playing. What do you think?
That said, not sure about this fella. I think he REALLY needs a good teacher.
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I see, and I have noticed increasing requests for samples of playing. I must admit, I can determine more from a few seconds of playing than from anything and everything else combined. Maybe dreamingJazz will follow through with something to hear.
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Hi guys OP here;
20 August 2020
I thought maybe I should follow up on this and show you guys progress.
I asked you guys about tips and tricks and how to learn jazz. So here it is.
Down Here On The Ground - Grant Green,
My first Jazz tune!! Forgive the sloppy playing! I’m trying to learn Jazz the easiest way possible. For now, i can only copy by ear. I cannot solo yet or follow rhythm or do jazz chords. But Grant Green got me into really diving into this as I enjoy his music.
Also, I’m learning this song by the minute. Slowly but surely. Learn 1 full minute, and master that and learn another minute and master that, so on and so forth.
I got the chorus down (I dont know why my phone stopped recording) before it goes into a full blown jazz bluesy solo, that part I need to slow down and focus on.
so i can only show you up to this part for now.
any tips? Advice? I really want to learn Jazz!!!
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Originally Posted by ragman1
My last post has a sample of heeding advices here to listen and play the tune I really like. I managed to learn 1:30mins of that song in about 2 hours, trying to get that feel, that emotion, that expression Grant Green is trying to convey. Unfortunately I am a noob and I am 35 years old and I feel i am too late or too old to play jazz.
so yeah, i’ll say to myself dream on, mate, dream on. I feel like an idiot. Oh well.Last edited by dreamingJazz; 08-20-2020 at 08:29 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
your posts are helpful. And i didnt try to go back here and post more questions and stuff without me trying my hand at “playing” jazz and learning at least one song or a part of a song to be able to post and let you guys know I’m trying.
sorry if I came in and just barged in and asked help as a newbie in a forum.
i feel like a kid whos only ever ridden a bike with side wheels, asking a group of adults on how to ride a bike without the side wheels. Of course i know im gonna get bruised up, wounded and fall down. Its all just part of the process, and I know that. I feel like an idiot.
all I was just trying to get is a more structured approach that I can do myself, being a noob, without any theory, and try to learn it. Im not looking to be a hack in jazz or blues, i want to improve and I want to be better even if I dont get there, at least I started.
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Originally Posted by paulnOriginally Posted by pauln
i can understand what you are saying. I can try and move forward with this in mind. Maybe it will give m a bit of direction in my learnings and journey
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Originally Posted by guavajelly
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dreamingjazz -
I've no idea what to say to you. I may have been blunt but I certainly wasn't trying to bully or belittle you.
After all, any activity approached with serious intent requires time spent, dedication, commitment, application, and so on. But, if one's time is short, the old adage of quality above quantity certainly applies. It would still apply even if one does have the time.
All right, you have a full-time job and a small child, obviously time-consuming and unquestionably coming first above playing the guitar!
So if you have, say, only 15 minutes a day, what will you do with it? An hour would be better because that gives you time to settle, get into it, and all that.
Incidentally, 35 is nothing, you have energy at 35. But, of course, if you were 75 you'd have more time :-)
See, it depends on how much you know already. Apparently you don't read music, you know some pentatonics, some chords, that kind of thing... and you want to sound like Grant Green. That tune seems not a bad place to start. It's more about syncopation than clever lines, etc.
You must have heard the Wes Montgomery version, have you? To my ear there's real feeling there, it swings... I prefer it :-)
So what will you do? When I was learning, many moons ago, I did what I wanted. I strummed songs I liked. I only took up note playing because people kept telling me to play a solo. I sort of got there eventually.
You need to know jazz chords, that's first. Then you need to know the tune, that's second. Then you need to learn a tune you like, that interests you.
After that, it takes study, research, looking at various versions, ways of playing, finding out. It will come sooner or later, but you have to understand it takes time, lots of time. BUT you don't think in terms of time. That is impatience and doesn't work. You just do what you're doing because that's where you are.
I can only say keep going. Do what you want, apply yourself logically, and I'm sure it'll work out.
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My advice would be general here.
- Just keep going and don't worry about life's demands, find the time that you can,
- That said, try for 45 minutes per day, more on weekends - you can make real progress with that over time!
- Use a pick,
- Learn to read - a tool who's value will become more and more apparent as you progress,
- Play strapped - neck up a little bit more than you are doing now with the horizontal position of the guitar,
- Continue learning by ear but get a few great books as well (do BOTH)
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Transcriber wanted
Today, 04:35 PM in Improvisation