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Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
Be a diva, be a rocker.
No, I'm kidding.
But you're not wrong, people who play jazz or pretend playing jazz (that's my case) are always looking for something, they get complicated things and go back to simple things then take another direction, they make, they destroy, go further then back, learn something then surrender, get something they didn't expected, is it new ? No, it's a cliché... Need some ? Let's find oneself... it doesn't sound like the others want... oh ? I don't have the basic things...
A good thing : everyone can take a place...
Just about guitarists...
Charlie Byrd, Mike Stern, Jim Hall, Lenny Breau, John Scofield, Joe Pass...
Every kind of style, playing, concept, personality...
The best musicians are always intimated when they listen to another musician and has to play with him or after him.
One day Art Pepper met Sonny Stitt during a jam session, both were intimated, different styles.
One day Paul Desmond said he was the slowest saxophonist in the World but he was someone, he had his thing.Last edited by Lionelsax; 02-23-2019 at 01:43 AM.
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02-23-2019 01:26 AM
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i think a lot of the "jazz is hard/jazz requires theory" thing stems from people not realising they are also crap at rock and blues.
I bet loads of people think "twiddle around in this pentatonic here and there" and I am playing the blues. But they sound garbage, and dont realise what makes a good player sound like they are playing the blues (e.g through right notes collections at the right time, and phrasing)
When they try and play jazz they sound even worse because the noodling pentatonic approach wont get them close enough to what the estimate jazz to be and this leads them to think their theory is letting them down - that they arent finding the right notes somehow.
The lack of theory probably IS letting them down, but a good ear player can get pretty far with pentatonics and a few choice notes too.
For me anyway, facing jazz head on was about throwing out the noodler in me and acknowledging that what I was doing, wasn't really music to anyone but me. For many learning jazz guitar is just learning MUSIC from scratch. many hobby guitarists (self included) and many of my friends, play for years without thinking of it musically.
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Originally Posted by basinstreet
Think about Babik Reinhardt, he didn't know anything about theory but heard everything because his ear was his only tool, for sure he had been born in a musical environment and for sure he was gifted.
If you add theory to such people, it makes guys like Boulou and Elios Ferré.
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
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ps i dont think a player like mayer would ever CLAIM to be able to play at grassos level, or that they want to. Joe bonamassa or whatever his name is has some serious technique from learning danny gatton, but even him..
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Originally Posted by joe2758
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It's hard to play rock well.
It's hard to play jazz even poorly?
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Originally Posted by joe2758
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Does it matter? If Rock were more complex and theory-bound, it would not be rock. Nobody demands that Reggae or Country be more difficult.
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Originally Posted by Litterick
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^^^^ this
It is complicated by design. But so are some styles of classical music.
One friend calls it, “bored musician’s music”. At least Bebop is. Played by musicians for musicians to showcase virtuosity in music.
Rock can be that too, I just don’t think many people are doing that. Perhaps it wouldn’t be called “rock”. What would have sounded like if Bird had ripped up a Ariana Grande concoction rather than some broadway show tune? Would we call it jazz, rap, rock, pop?
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If the aim or the highest level is melody should it not all merge?
There is so much jazz that is not melodic hence it lacks popularity. Too many wasted notes.
Jazz is hard as a beginner let alone to progress to advanced There are many intermediate rock guitarists I would prefer to listen to than even so called jazz masters. But why progress or strive to be advanced in jazz if you cannot play a memorable blues solo or a memorable solo to Summertime. Is the complexity a crutch?
I think jazz is hard to learn and easy to hide in its complexity and be average or below melodically, in other words really hard to be melodic, is there a fundamental floor there? Rock perhaps the opposite, easy to be melodic and easy to learn.
How many jazz solos stand out and stick in your head compared to say Something by George Harrison? Lee Morgan has some unbelievable moments, Miles of course, Clifford Brown, there are some golden moments from Kenny Burrell and early George Benson but compared to the volume of their stuff the memorable singable melodies are few. And in the thousands and thousands and thousands of jazz recordings there are tit bits of amazing melody but can we name even 10 jazz albums that have the melody of a Rubber Soul or Abbey Road?
Maybe jazz is more a live thing, when the band is burning and you are there feeling the energy there is nothing like it, the only recordings I feel a glimmer of that energy are Wes' live recordings. But burning is not memorably singable melody it is more like a metal shred fest without an overdrive pedal.
I am currently weeding out my itunes playlist, if it is not melodic and memorable I am deleting. There is a lot receiving the delete button.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by Litterick
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My 2 cents:
I am not really sure this is a helpful comparison, but it almost seems like a paradox of sorts. As amorphous as a jazz composition can be it is reliant on a full cohesiveness of everything involved, meaning it is less about a pastiche of things and more about the full interplay between the components. Rock can be a pastiche of things if even for the reason to be cohesive. Ever heard Pete Townsend's isolated guitar on some of the Who's biggest hits? He really isn't playing songs. Here is an example from Terry Kath. Remember that they played this stuff live, so they were truly pastiches to make songs with everyone else in the band. Although it might not be fair to everything in the rock world it does illustrate a kind of separate of how the latitude of a jazz composition encircles a larger area than rock. Does this make sense?
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Originally Posted by gggomez
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For sure man. I am talking about the other 4 minutes of the tunes the improv.
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Let's compare learning country compared to learning bluegrass....
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Originally Posted by gggomez
I still like a bit of rock now and then, but it’s not long before I get a bit bored with it and go back to jazz.
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Originally Posted by gggomez
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
I see nothing vicious in his comment. Mean-spirited sarcasm and sniping at another person in a direct and personal way are a pretty different type of thing. I just don't see it as that.
Comments have a context, based on the individual delivering them, as well. The jester has always had his place in society. He often risks being burned at the stake I guess, but let the jester do his thing. He very often delivers truth juxtaposed with the ridiculous. In a DIFFERENT way, the shaman has deep truths which have to be sifted through vast quantities of seeming insanity.
Tolerances for all of these types will vary based on temperament and on regional communication styles etc. There's a strong modern western society prejudice in my opinion towards a very linear, reductionist, scientific way of talking and relating. other societies seem to value very different communication styles 's being valuable for their own sake.
To those of us who are less inclined toward an overly linear way of speaking all of the time, the overly pragmatic and academic/scientific way of talking about things comes off as being just as annoying as the babbling shaman may be on the other side of the coin. A lot of it is largely personal preference.
Anyway, speaking of babbling... Sorry.
Let the jester be the jester.
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oh shit lemme be a knight
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I actually often find swing through most bop and even beyond improv MORE melodic. Anything that follows the changes...
I think that's one of the reasons a player like say, Gilmour sounds so "melodic" in a rock context...he actually addresses the chord changes, doesn't just stuff the tune into a box and make "melody" from that.
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Jazz is harder on many levels. So why does this need to be discussed?
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