The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    I've been watching Planet Earth. Talk about getting your perspective re-adjusted. I'm thinking "What's harder, being a penguin or a wildebeest?" Well both take a lifetime to become good enough to stay alive. Both take something exceptional to find a mate and be happy. Both follow their inner nature. Both would look at the other and say "Gosh. How do they DO that?" Ha ha.
    The first time I saw Sco, it was in the 80's; before Miles. It was a talk he gave and I was pretty new to the whole jazz thing. It was really mysterious and Sco was doing things that were way beyond what even most guitarists of the day. But he said one thing that stuck with me "Gotta know your scales. It's like the blues, you've gotta know what works. Once you know what chord it is, just play the scale and everyone will think you're a genius!". Ha, Sco's a joker and a humble guy but yeah, once you understand the game plan of your own nature, whether wildebeest or penguin, then you walk the migratory walk year after year. You get good at it.

    Rock rewards the player who pays attention to proficiency and an emotional tie with the audience. There is a deep and intuitive understanding of what connects. Jazz rewards the player who pays attention to the composition of that has not been done before. There is a deep and uncompromising aesthetic of what challenges. It's a disparate audience that shapes the nature of the beast.

    I spoke Chinese when I was a kid. 'don't any more. I remember in school people talked about the hardest language. I never got it when they'd say Chinese was hard. Well I don't do it anymore, it's not my language...and yeah, boy is it hard now! LOL.

    Jazz is easy. But it's plenty challenging every day of my life. And hopefully will be. Forever. But that's nothing when compared with making a dollar in a bar where you can get paid. Rock rules, ha. And singing and playing guitar at the same time? I am in awe.

    David

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    In general, navigating jazz harmony is harder and usually takes longer to become competent than playing rock. Don't make the exceptions the rule.

  4. #28

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    That's a good question, rock tends to be like classical music, you have to play a given "arrangement", to play or barely play a "written" solo, it's quite repetitive, sometimes it's very sophisticated.
    About blues, for rockers and jazzers, the blues is a form but for someone who really plays the blues it's something else, there are so many forms.
    I'd played the bass for several months in a blues band and the singer/guitarist calls himself "Ayatollah Of Blues", a solo was based only on a pentatonic, some blues had some weird parts because the chords underlined the lyrics, so sometimes there was a bar of 2/4 or 3/4 at the middle of a verse. I couldn't play the bass the way I wanted because my lines were too sophisticated... When I was talking about guys like Jack Bruce, they called them a jazzer/rocker, not a bluesman and too white and British to play the blues.
    With them I figured out there were blues standards.

    Many forms of blues in 8 bars, 12 bars, 16 bars... Very basic chords but none of those blues had to be played the same way.

    About jazz, it's something impersonal that can become very personal because it's about creativity. The good thing with, is that you can play with your own sound, sometimes there is no level, if you do the job it's OK, sometimes you can't play because the level is high.
    There are a lot of things to learn, playing with people is like cooking, a little bit like... prog rock if we can do a comparison with rock.

  5. #29

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    The craft of any art form is endless. One can take it as far as they wish, and will never reach the end. Yes, a master player achieves things that are "harder" on an E blues shuffle, and it can be impressive. A player on Stella can be as bad as a person first holding a guitar.

    Don't you think it's harder to be a run of the mill jazz player doing a passable stella at a jam than to be a run of the mill rock player doing an E blues at a jam?

    That's about 1 year of playing vs. 5 or so maybe

  6. #30

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    Playing rock or blues is about dealing with where you are...playing over one chord at a time.

    Playing jazz is about where you're going next.

  7. #31

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    I can imagine someone without any musical training but with a decent musical sense being able to sing a melodic solo over "November Rain changes" by ear on par with Slash's solo on the recording (in terms of the inherent musical complexity of the solo).
    I don't see them being able to wing a sophisticated jazz solo on par with what Wes Montgomery played on a tune like "Nica's Dream". I don't mean meeting the level compositional quality Wes could produce, but I mean having a similar variety in melodic, rhythmic and harmonic devices while staying coherent over the changes:
    Last edited by Tal_175; 02-20-2019 at 10:12 AM.

  8. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I just don't remember seeing much of this.
    Revisit this thread from time to time and see if you can spot them....

  9. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    .... But when talking about high level playing, I think all styles are equally difficult. The level is set by people who devote their whole lives to it, so it's always high.....
    Some people devote their entire life to being the very best shoe shiner they can be. Some people devote their life to being the very best brain surgeon they can be. Hmmm, I guess the degree of difficulty must be the same. Sorry, you're right, what was I thinking!

  10. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Revisit this thread from time to time and see if you can spot them....
    Ok. I see what you're talking about, but I think there's a distinction between "beginning the same way" - starting with copying favorite artists etc - vs saying that covering Stella is "the same/no more difficult etc" to covering a basic 12 bar blooze. They are "the same" and "different" at the same time.

    I have heard Reg and other pros talk about it basically being "the same" in the sense that you have to learn to play convincingly over a single chord type. In other styles the single chord type often might be generalized for most of the tune, where as in jazz, you're generally covering many different chord types and functions within a given tune. So, I just think that asking whether they are "the same" maybe isn't the right question.

    I think it's merely talking about a couple of slightly different things as if they're one thing...

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    ... to a level where you can gig with the best in each respective field.

    The reasons I'm interested in this subject are :

    1/ Like many I've been through the learning curve for both and

    2/ Bizarrely, there are posts I come across on this forum where people suggest that being good at plain old rock guitar is almost as difficult as being good at Jazz....

    So I'd like to get some thoughts on this from some of you guys, preferably from those of you who have climbed both "mountains".

    I'll start off with an analogy that sums up the difference for me-

    Getting my shit together to be gig ready in rock guitar (Hendrix, Clapton, Page etc) as a teenager took some work, probably 2 years of 1 to 2 hours a day. I could then play rock solos I heard (after many repeated listens), and then quickly moved on to improvise endlessly against all the usual rock progressions. Lotsa people did this.

    Now lets make the analogy for this work to be "washing windows". Learning rock guitar soloing was like having to wash all the windows for the entire ground floor of the old World Trade Centre.

    Learning Jazz on the other hand (again, to an "impressive" level), is more like having to wash every fucking window in not just the whole fucking tower, but both of them! Then, when you think you're done, you have to start again, to keep them clean!

    If you disagree, you might infer that I must be doing it all wrong (I've heard that one before). Just so I see you coming, let me just say that if you disagree that the difference is that great, I'll say outright, without a shred of doubt, that you must be doing it wrong!

    Novices watching this space will no doubt side with the "Nah, Jazz is not that complicated" brigade. I get it, it's what you wanna believe (and we all tend to read and agree with what suits us these days - Idiocracy an' all that...). Cool, come back to this thread in 5 years and let's see how you're travelling, in fact, let's make it 10!

    I think to play rock or blues WELL is a bit harder...

    I recognise that teenage rock thing... But now I go back to tunes and realise I learned them wrong haha... There's quite a lot to that rock and roll music, you know :-)

    The real difficulty with learning jazz? I think it's a matter of immersion. When I was growing up, teenagers still used to gather around the guitar and play songs on the beach or whatever.... Imagine if those songs were jazz standards... May have been like that at one time, the Beatles used some pretty jazz chords.

    Of course to be a great jazz improvisor takes a long long time, esp. on the guitar... But being functional as a player, knowing the melodies and changes to a lot of jazz tunes, being able to play a little bit... That's not something that's valued now, so people either go all in to be jazz virtuosos or give up - even the amateurs.

    Perhaps the same is now true of Hotel California...

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think to play rock or blues WELL is a bit harder...
    Than jazz? gtfo

    John Mayer plays rock and blues well.



    pasquale grasso plays jazz well.



    yeah yeah not fair to compare artists etc whatever obviously it was bound to happen on this thread right

  13. #37

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    Sorry, jazz police, I meant to say to play rock and blues well is a bit harder than it seemed when I was 16.

    I did once laugh at somebody for suggesting Julian Lage and John Mayer were on a par... I mean, no...

    But then, the way we judge a good jazz players is completely different from a good rock guitarist... And the number 1 thing that I value from any player is individuality and character... that goes for any genre.

    Mayer sounds like he listened to the same records I did when I was learning guitar and got really good at copying them.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sorry, jazz police, I meant to say to play rock and blues well is a bit harder than it seemed when I was 16.

    I did once laugh at somebody for suggesting Julian Lage and John Mayer were on a par... I mean, no...

    But then, the way we judge a good jazz players is completely different from a good rock guitarist... And the number 1 thing that I value from any player is individuality and character... that goes for any genre.

    Mayer sounds like he listened to the same records I did when I was learning guitar and got really good at copying them.
    yeah i agree with all this except calling me the jazz police which hurt my feelings

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think to play rock or blues WELL is a bit harder...

    I recognise that teenage rock thing... But now I go back to tunes and realise I learned them wrong haha... There's quite a lot to that rock and roll music, you know :-)

    The real difficulty with learning jazz? I think it's a matter of immersion. When I was growing up, teenagers still used to gather around the guitar and play songs on the beach or whatever.... Imagine if those songs were jazz standards... May have been like that at one time, the Beatles used some pretty jazz chords.

    Of course to be a great jazz improvisor takes a long long time, esp. on the guitar... But being functional as a player, knowing the melodies and changes to a lot of jazz tunes, being able to play a little bit... That's not something that's valued now, so people either go all in to be jazz virtuosos or give up - even the amateurs.

    Perhaps the same is now true of Hotel California...
    The sad truth is 99% guitarists can't play Johnny B Goode right, and yet take it for granted that it's the easiest thing in the world.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    The sad truth is 99% guitarists can't play Johnny B Goode right, and yet take it for granted that it's the easiest thing in the world.
    Probably the single most butchered intro lick in music history.

  17. #41

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    Perhaps learning to play rock guitar is a means to an end, while learning jazz guitar is an end in itself. We learn to play rock guitar because we want to emulate our heroes, because we want to play in a band or because we want to write songs. After reaching a useful level of competence, we stop learning. We learn to play jazz because of musical curiosity; learning continues and never really ends. Experienced and renowned jazz guitarists (Bill Frisell comes to mind) often talk of finding new ways of playing. Rock guitarists seldom talk in this way.

  18. #42

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    You play rock to get laid. When it stops working you switch to jazz. Luckily at that point you have lots of time in your hands to finally practice and learn music.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    You play rock to get laid. When it stops working you switch to jazz. Luckily at that point you have lots of time in your hands to finally practice and learn music.
    You mean you supposed to start learning jazz when you old enough to not need to get laid?

  20. #44

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    I’m uncomfortable.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    You mean you supposed to start learning jazz when you old enough to not need to get laid?
    No, that would be too bleak a prospect for jazz. I meant when people you date get old enough not to be infatuated by rock guitar playing crowd. Like, I don't know, 27 and older I guess. A lot of Jazz guitarist started by playing rock. Also I don't see this forum being filled with 15 year olds unlike other guitar forums.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 02-22-2019 at 07:25 PM.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    No, that would be too bleak a prospect for jazz. I meant when people you date get old enough not to be infatuated by rock guitar playing crowd. Let say 27 and older in most cases. A lot of Jazz guitarist started by playing rock. I don't see this forum being filled by 15 year olds unlike other guitar forums.
    Yea, I was worried if young ladies approach me after the gig does it mean I'm not jazz enough? Fortunately it rarely happens these days so I have more time in my hands to practice.


  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    No, that would be too bleak a prospect for jazz. I meant when people you date get old enough not to be infatuated by rock guitar playing crowd. Let say 27 and older in most cases. A lot of Jazz guitarist started by playing rock. Also I don't see this forum being filled with 15 year olds unlike other guitar forums.
    Well if there are some people who started playing jazz guitar when they were 10 or 11, I don't think they would post something here but for sure we would talk about them. Or if they posted something they wouldn't give their identity.
    Who knows ?
    Yes, it's true, everyone starts with rock or started, now I guess there is a kind of revival, when I was younger it was difficult to meet someone who really played jazz guitar and all the things around it. Now with internet, everyone knows it's something that exists.

  24. #48

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    the thread title compare learning rock/blues to learning jazz

    to me this would have to be the most basic of each style...

    learning 5 or 6 chords in rock and you could play hundreds of songs by "ear" and not have to learn a bit of theory-- from the 50's and early mid 60s ..after that "rock" evolved and Jimi took over and it has been evolving since..learning a Hendrix solo is not going to be an easy task as learning a beach boys solo..

    same time period early 50s/60s..jazz--Wes..Kenny Burrell..and others were playing standards and doing improve over them that took practice to some degree and absorb theory by osmosis if not through formal studies .. learning this by ear alone would be a challenge I think..the harmonic background would require some study of chords and voice movement ..

    when Miles went "fusion" .. McLaughlin and many others went with it..and it has been evolving since..again learning a standard from the 50s like "on green dolphin street" would be fairly easy .. but a "return to forever" or Mahavishnu tune is going to take some time and study of music directly or indirectly

  25. #49

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    Joe (or anyone):

    Are there young rock players who I should be listening to? John Mayer is refreshingly competent instrumentalist at a time when pop artist tend to be mostly dancers with passable singing voices performing music written by professional composers and producers. But John M doesn’t surprise me with his inventiveness (like Julian L) or wow me with his technique (like Pasquale G).

    I don’t mean that in an angry old man way. I would love to be turned on to exciting new players. I think I’ve gravitated to jazz because rock guitar felt so stilted and preserved in amber. Weirdly rock feels like its gone backwards where Gilad H, Pasquale G, Julian L, et al, are making fresh contributions.

    Whenever I see live music it is usually some grey haired white guy trying to sound like one of the Kings. Hendrix, Page, and even Gilmore were much more avant-garde than what I hear out today. I would love to hear rock players as exciting as the young jazz players (or bluegrass players, for that matter).

    Suggestions?

    (PS sorry for the highjack. Joe’s posting put this in mind. )


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  26. #50

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    There is no genre of music harder to comprehend than Jazz. None. It's relatively easy to be an acceptable Rock or Blues player by comparison. Even Classical is easier to master as it's a more linear pursuit with a clear pedagogy. Jazz is unmercifully cerebral. Jazz requires deep commitment. Additionally, Jazz culture is such that unless you can show that you have done the work, you are NOT a Jazz musician. It's set up to be a fairly exclusive club from the get-go. If you want feel ok about yourself as a player and a person, stick with Rock and Blues. If you want to have your world and self-worth destroyed consistently, study Jazz. Jazz looks down on you with utter snark for even asking this question. (With the exception that it gives old-timers the opportunity to man-splain ad nauseum.)