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Originally Posted by grahambop
It tackled me instead! LOL. I just got real discouraged at the lack of progress, at continuously sounding awful, of seeing the mountains and mountains of work required in order to sound merely mediocre, at getting lost in the form, of having no idea what to play as the chords flew by. Mostly I fell in to this awful pattern of practicing and woodshedding and transcribing for years on end and retaining nothing. Unfortunately, as I am self taught, I think I'm just not smart enough, creative enough, or maybe just not patient enough to figure it out. I'm not looking for pity there, just stating the facts as I see them. There are some things some people can't do.
I think, under those circumstances, I can't really say I was having much in the way of fun. But personally, music has always been very difficult for me. It's a lot of work if you want to do it well. I have to woodshed constantly for things that come quite naturally to others. I've fooled some folks into thinking I know what I'm doing just by over-preparing for rehearsals/gigs/recordings etc. Turns out you can't fake Jazz.
I hope I'm not discouraging anyone else though. If you got the bug, go for it! I'm the last person anyone should listen to on the subject of Jazz improvisation.
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11-13-2020 02:59 PM
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I think you possibly underestimated the effort involved, it’s true that playing jazz is not easy after coming from rock (I also found that!). As you say, just getting your head round the chord progressions of the standards is quite a ‘culture shock’ after playing relatively simple rock songs for years.
But I think people over-complicate it as well. For example most standards are really based on ‘chunks’ of the same few progressions. It took me years to figure that out. Before that I saw each tune as a separate ‘forest of chords’ with nothing in common. When you know that, you realise that you can effectively use a lot of the same ideas on many different tunes. Reducing and simplifying the structures is what a lot of musicians do (e.g. Joe Pass said that to him there are only 3 chords: major, minor and dominant).
But anyway that’s a whole other discussion. In some ways I think I was lucky back then not to have any books, internet, etc. to addle my head with complex theory and so on. I just learned some licks from Wes etc, figured out a few tunes, and went at it. I didn’t even have a fakebook or real book! I had to learn the tunes entirely by ear.
For bebop stuff, you might want to look at the youtube channel ‘things I learned from Barry Harris’. He reduces things to much simpler approaches. That’s if you still want to try!
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Well this thread has made me pick up my copy of Introduction to Jazz Soloing again and this time I can dive right in at writing licks since I know where many of the subs are in the book. It's really these subs that will make you sound like you're playing jazz as diatonic everything doesn't really cut it.
If anyone wants to join me just send a PM.
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Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
Firstly if you don't enjoy it don't bother. You are not looking to become a pro player so if it is not enjoyable it sounds like a pain you don't need.
However my advice to turn agony into something you enjoy is what worked for me.
Throw all the books out and all the practice you hate doing. You know the major scale backwards yes? Good that is all you need and a pair of ears. Keep in mind listening is practice. I feel listening to classic Grant Green for 5 hours will help more than practicing a 13b9 arpeggio in every key. Why? Because you are absorbing the language and the phrasing with your ears. The brain and the ears are magical instruments and if you let them will do all the work for you.
Take a couple of tunes you love and have an emotional connection to. If you are learning a tune because you feel you should rather than because it moves you don't bother. I recommend starting with something mid tempo without a flood of changes at first. Music isn't a competition, playing a simple tune well is better than playing a fast tune badly.
Listen to all the versions you can find of it, play it in the car, sing it in the shower. Play through the song focusing on arpeggiating the chords slowly, play it while watching TV. Don't worry about fancy inversions, just play what shapes you know and feel comfortable with. When you can play it without sheet music in front of you will know the path through the song. What key is the song in, does it change key? Make a note where that change happens and listen so you can hear it each time it comes round.
Final step, now play just the major scale in the key of each section and focus on playing melodies. Don't worry about anything else. Then an amazing thing will happen. Your ear will guide you to both the extensions and passing notes required and guide you to new and exciting melodic ideas, without having to think "Oh I should be playing Lydian here".
I am 41, I have focused on playing jazz for about 5 years. No one will mistake me for a professional jazz player, however I can now sit down and record the chords of a favourite tune in my DAW and improvise over it for hours and it is the best feeling. I am aware this process may not work for everyone and I hope I am not telling you anything that may damage your development, I am sure some more experienced players will correct me but doing this turned me from someone who was depressed every time I sat down to practice to someone who pretty much only learns by improvising.
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Originally Posted by DMgolf66
Some people can't improvise, who knows why. But just because they can't, doesn't mean you can't. Remember it is playing a melody. If you can come up with a melody over a tune, by singing or playing then you have the necessary skills already. I am sure you can come up with 4 or 5 variations on a melody over some chords you come up with? It may take a while but jazz is just playing different melodies over a set of chords.
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OK, I'm confused. James, you say you have a music degree in one post and then in another you say you are self-taught. Do you mean you are self-taught on guitar but have formal training on another instrument? What's your primary instrument if it's not guitar? Or did you get a degree in composition, music therapy, something else? I just want to try to get an idea of where you are coming from.
Second, I'm glad you got a teacher a few years ago. Wish I had seen this thread then; if I had, I would say that if you are not making progress and not retaining anything, get a DIFFERENT teacher. Casting no aspersion towards your teacher or you, just saying that sometimes it "clicks" and other times it doesn't. I have had a number of teachers over the years, and some of them helped me right away, while others used an approach that did not help me. Maybe it was great for their other students, but not for me.
Finally, you said a few times that you can't "think of a melody" and that you can't scat sing. A technique that might help is to take a melody you can already play and then start modifying it. Keep the melody notes but change the rhythm. Play pieces, phrases, and repeat them. Play pieces of the melody out of order. Try changing just one note. Then maybe another. As you try out more things, you'll get further from playing the melody by rote and closer to making things up on the fly. The basic melody and rhythm provides you a framework of "sounds that work" that you can alter a bit here and there to create new ideas that still work.
PLAY... not WORK... at this. Just try things out. Keep it fun. Hopefully you will find some fulfillment and keep going.
You can try this with some of your rock shredding too.... just use what you know and are comfortable with as a starting point. Maybe try playing a rock melody you know with a clean tone, a different tempo, a different groove... not necessarily try to turn it into bop, you said you like fusion and modal... just the idea of taking something you know as a starting point to develop the skill of modifying that as a basis for creating new ideas.
Lastly, crawl before you walk, walk before you shred. Pick easy tunes and limited goals. Don't try to become Joe Pass overnight; it will just be frustrating.
This may be too little too late, but... just in case... I hope this helps.
Good luck!
SJ
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Originally Posted by starjasmine
I don’t really know the difference between Rock melodies and Rock licks. I just know licks really. And it doesn’t matter anyway. I’ve tried to shoehorn some of the Rock stuff over changes. It generally sounds pretty bad.
This thread has gotten a bit out of hand and turned slightly awkward. I’ve tried to delete it but I don’t think that’s possible. Thanks for everyone’s suggestions. I know you are all only trying to help.Last edited by Jamesrohr1; 11-15-2020 at 06:01 PM. Reason: Grammar
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Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
I'm certainly feeling this real pain.
I taught myself basic classical guitar and played pop and rock, but teaching myself jazz is the one of the hardest things I've ever done. Looking back over several years I felt serial confusion reading tutors and attending jazz group sessions. I think now all I needed was someone to say - music is music is music- scales and arpeggios are required unless you have a bat's hearing. If you can play arpeggios over every chord in a jazz standard that's a huge step on from playing chords C,F & G over a pop favourite. Playing the same arpeggios and anticipating the root from a fret below is revelation in sound. But the main thing I look back to is believing I couldn't play any music until I'd mastered every bit of jazz theory and endless advice out there.
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Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
The thread caused me to do a lot of self-reflection on my Jazz journey. I step away, but then I return to the "fight." But, after 11 years of off and on trying., I am still seeing some progress that keeps me encouraged. Lately, I am quicker to notice the same shapes, when it comes to the modes of the Major Scale. Now, I am facing the challenge of working in some Melodic Minor Modes to get that tension. It has been fun.
Maybe you can do I what I am doing. Rather than putting pressure on myself to learn X number of Jazz songs, I have written my own changes, based on the ones I normally encounter in Jazz Songs. I spend months just trying to perfect one song, but it has certain chord progressions that I want to master. I can see how one can repeat licks on different songs because many of the shapes are derivative of others that I am familiar with.
Take Care and Happy Holidays to you and you guitar journey. Great thread. It got me going again on Melodic Minor (and its modes), which for my ears is what makes the Jazz that I really like.
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Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
In terms of the thread, don't worry about it. Threads have a life of their own. They are kind of like children in certain senses, and you have to let go if it becomes something different. It's actually been a great thread, far beyond your personal involvement. So, be happy with that aspect, and don't worry too much about its personal relevance in your life at the moment. That's not what threads are ultimately about. It's simply a conversation which is preserved.
Thanks for starting the thread, and I'm glad that it's still up.
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Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
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Originally Posted by DMgolf66
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Originally Posted by retrocat
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