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Originally Posted by christianm77
That has always been the case for me. I can play over changes the first time I hear/see them (to point, i.e., assuming it's a standard with lots of ii-V-I's), but melodies can stump me. I've finally really taken it to heart that you should internalize the melody from vocal versions and the lyrics (not much help with true jazz tunes, bop heads, etc., though)
John
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10-04-2016 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Zen and the Art of Long Distance Jazz Guitar Fishing in the Yemen: Swing Rhythm Guitar Pointers
(I have literally no idea about Western Swing. Every so often a man in a cowboy hat will come up to me after a gig and engage in discussion regarding the Texas Playboys or something. I never have any idea of what he is on about. I'm sure it's great, but I don't play or listen to that stuff.)
The number one thing that players get wrong including really good modern players who try to play gypsy swing is to accent the two and four by making them louder. Don't do it! Absolutely no one thinks that is a good idea.
(I'm not saying that is something I think you do by the way)
There's a lot of rhythm guitar stuff, in general including things I do, that I don't like. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of modern la pompe feels personally, but it has its place.
I tend to prefer American swing rhythm guitar over European. But, some traditional pompe feels are very nice.
A two feel with a short and perhaps pushed 2 and 4 with a solid downbeat is good for fast tempos. The same feel at medium tempo sounds too much like Polka to me (nothing wrong with Polka of course, it's a very useful thing to have down for all kinds of related musics including Klezmer, Russian Gypsy Music and Turkish Longas and things - it's just not swing).
I like an even, smooth medium bounce at medium tempos, more American than Gypsy.
But even Django and the boys didn't overdo the 2 and 4 accentuation. For further exhaustive debates I direct you to the shady side streets of Djangobooks.com :-)
Personal taste anyway. It's an artform right?Last edited by christianm77; 10-04-2016 at 08:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I dunno man, I kinda I see what you are saying about even and smooth, and also Gypsy jazz needs to be downstrokes, but that's not how I feel it. To me that's what makes GJ so monotonous in the rhythm guitar department. Some like it like that, I don't.
In American swing smooth and even is fine... But so many things happened in music since 30's you know... jump blues, rock'n'roll brought a lot of excitement. No upstrokes in strumming? Sorry, not my kind idea of rhythm playing.
But otherwise you're right Different strokes (see what I did?) for different folks, whatever makes people move to your music.
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
And there are different styles and feels within the umbrella 'swing.'
I don't want everything to sound the same.
It's all about control. I'm not saying never use an upstroke. I'm saying don't do it unconsciously. It's a common thing to 'ghost' notes on the guitar unintentionally, I actually I spend a lot of time eliminating this from my playing because I think it sounds messy and detracts from the groove. I don't hear it in the players I admire.
I think in part it's a bit of nervous tic. But you hear it a lot.
But OTOH I'm not going to be playing James Brown without upstrokes, am I?
That said for jive stuff sometimes downstrokes sit better on the upbeat depending on tempo. I did that on a recording session for an artist recently at the drummers suggestion. Really helped it sit. The bass player I was working with often moans about how jive off beat feels don't sit. The upstroke offbeat is actually hard to get right.
Downstrokes don't have to go on the beat necessarily.
GJ trad rhythm guitar has a grace upstroke that's a real feature of the style and quite hard to get right.
So - I'm not actually hearing much of an accent on 2 and 4 in the Hot Club of Cowtown you posted. An accent, yes, but quite a subtle one.
The guitarist is having to keep the chords very short because he is playing electric. This is an issue that is taken care of if you play an acoustic, but obviously that's not always an option. I'm not crazy about where he is choosing to lengthen his chords sometimes. Those are things I would personally seek to eliminate in my own rhythm playing.
But *shrugs* they are a well known band and the guy can certainly tear it up on guitar. Also he is singing at the same time?
But you know what, these details are important to me. I'm not saying my feelings and aesthetic are better than yours. The point is that attention is paid to them so that you are making a musical choice.
Rhythm guitar is a real art form and I spend a lot of time listening to it and working on it. Lots of subtleties.Last edited by christianm77; 10-04-2016 at 09:01 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Jive stuff, we are talking jump blues kinda thing right? Absolutely upstrokes on 2 and 4 most of the time, that's how Jamaicans got heir stuff going in the 50's. But variations allowed, nothing rigid like GJ.
But I can't agree more, all of it has to be conscious choices in your playing based on experience and what's a gig calls for. "Rhythm guitar is a real art form"- yes, and my favourite too!
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
I'm in two minds about that style of bass - obviously a country thing really. But - it helps fill out the sound of group like this with no rhythm guitar or drums. I play in a group with a similar line up.
It's very easy to over do 2 and 4, and is mostly a changes in duration of the chord with a slight increase in velocity from the strumming hand which in la Pompe technique is generated by raising the hand slightly higher. I actually think that the mere idea of there being a 2 and 4 accent is probably enough to create it without having to do anything much physically.
Yeah jump blues. Again, I'm not saying don't use an upstroke, or that I don't. In that case it worked to use a downstroke. The tune was slow.
The point is the upstroke is hard (for me) to perfect and it is a problem that these feels often don't sit very well because of it. Certainly something I have had to work on in all styles. Probably GJ/swing players - who are often playing jump numbers on swing gigs - are unused to playing upstrokes in rhythm parts. Players used to alternating for funk etc would find it easier I daresay.
Actually there are some nice instances in the Hot Club recordings of small stretches of rhythm guitar with jump style offbeats presumably with upstrokes/upbeats (at around 3 minutes here):
Modern GJ players don't seem to do this kind of thing much AFAIK. Great uncluttered feel throughout this tune.
In terms of my own playing listening back, I often hear rushed upstrokes and so on. I'm slowly fixing them, but it's pretty embarrassing.
Straight up swing acoustic rhythm guitar is probably one of the things I do the most. I know how I want that stuff to sound and the details are important to me. But when you have your thing and you go after it, no one can say it's wrong.Last edited by christianm77; 10-04-2016 at 09:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I came to swing via blues, funk, ska, and then rockabilly, so my habits and preferences for rhythm playing highly influenced by that. I like to keep those influences even as I'm getting the traditional jazz guitar education, because I don't want to sound like everyone else.
Slap bass is dog's bollocks in my book! Bass players who can alternate between that and the walking lines are the ones I wanna marry. (Don't mean that too literally
I feel bad making this thread too much about rhythm guitar though, somebody should start a thread on that already.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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[QUOTE=christianm77;699254]Yeah the backbeat can be such a crutch can't it?
But I don't like complexity for the sake of complexity. Complex can be great, but it has to grooving.
Absolutely, and not just on drums either. A lesson I learnt young, having studied up on Rush. Show up for a jam ... "What do you know?" ... "uh, 'Spirit of Radio'?" Yeah, no. As I've grown as a player, I've learnt that while I must be sensitive to complex grooves or songs, at the same time, simplifying things broadens horizons.
Originally Posted by christianm77
Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Anyway I might add that to the list - everyone should play rhythm guitar.
But yeah thread it up.Last edited by christianm77; 10-05-2016 at 05:27 AM.
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I haven't. But I will sure go take a listen. I'm most familiar with Gadd's work from Aja, and also from an instructional video a drummer of mine showed me once. The guy's fabulous -- before hearing him, I never thought of a drum-kit as an instrument which involved touch in the delicate sense of the term, but definitely had my mind changed by him. And unusual stuff, too -- in his solo on "Aja", there's a point where after some heavy riffing, before they go into the last verse, where he throws in a simple stick-click. Brilliant!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concierto
For simple drumming from a guys who has chops, I like Kenny Aranoff's work with Mellencamp from the 80s. Crap material (in my opinion), but he made the most of it by working the beat. Phil Rudd's work with AC/DC was the same way -- you could tell the guy had more in the bag than he was letting out. Tony Thompson, ditto.
'More in the bag' - I think you should always leave more in the bag. Bring your ears not you ego to the gig yadda yadda yadda. Easy to say .... hard to do!
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Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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brilliant - thank you!
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by coolvinny
Then listening to some more jazz versions and seeing how the melody is varied. Takes a long time actually...
It can be worth having a look at a chart sometimes too, although I don't do this very often.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Billy Higgins simply owns on some of those blue notes. I'm thinking in particular of a series of Hank Mobley records with him, McCoy Tyner, Hank, and Lee Morgan. It is like he is leading the band and arranging the tunes at the same time.
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Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
Think I need some I-blues-profen after that pun.
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haha! yeah! and I need some omepra-A7b9-razole
I'm not good at this
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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Originally Posted by joe2758
Best.
Pun.
Eveeeer.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I also don't like learning from a very slow version of anything - so I try to find slightly faster versions of "ballads". If I learn at a comfortable tempo then I can take the tempo up or down, change the feel, etc on my own. But even then, there are exceptions Chet Baker sings pretty straight and is easy to learn from at any tempo, even if he's singing.
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