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You can't really "dabble" in jazz, if you expect to play jazz with any amount of proficiency. But yeah, you could glean a few things and apply them to different settings...
I think the quicksand is a good thing, really
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09-30-2014 10:17 AM
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I'm not complaining, mind you. I often say, "I set out to become a rock star, and ended up becoming a musician instead."
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
You can't really "dabble" in jazz, if you expect to play jazz with any amount of proficiency. But yeah, you could glean a few things and apply them to different settings...
I think the quicksand is a good thing, really
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Bingo. Same here. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
The only thing I can really add to this is: Beware of the quicksand. I started studying jazz as a way to expand my rock playing, and now jazz is all I want to play.
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reg, are the concepts you're always talking about laid out pretty clearly in those 2 books, using the same terminology etc? Modal interchange, blue note concepts etc... [Edit: Nevermind that question. I misunderstood. You're referencing the shady claim in the original post. Got it.] Originally Posted by Reg
Honestly, there's not anything like a clear method for guitarists that I've ever seen, and I don't see other people talking about all the things you talk about the way that you talk about them.
I really think the earlier-mentioned idea of reg+ editor/co-writer for a book or whatever is a seriously fantastic idea. From what I've ever seen, you don't seem to be about all of that kind of stuff and think a lot of the books etc. are b.s. or whatever.
But why are they BS? Is it because the concepts laid out elsewhere are outdated or not effective? If that's the case then it points to a fact that there's a void. I think a lot of people would really benefit from something like this from you besides me.
Honestly, I think you're at your best when you're in front of that camera with a guitar, but it's a lot to take in for some of us. For me, there's a lot of feeling like "whoa, where do I start with that *one* concept you just mentioned, at a *basic* level?"
Would you be open to someone with some basic publishing skills (and who actually understands the concepts) sending you some beginning, sequential, written materials for you review/edits, based on some of your threads and videos? It certainly isn't me, although I could help with giving a lower level perspective on things. :-)
If you're not interested in writing or whatever, it could be just on a kind of "No, that's not quite what I meant type of basis." And you just build it through conversations and edits over time. If you think that's too much of a BS thing for your style or whatever, maybe it could be a kind of Reg wiki edited by a group that turns into a book later.
Jazz is a big endeavor. I just feel like the overall structure, the scope and sequence of the entire process are greatly needed. And much of the particular problems for guitarists are related to the instrument itself. (For example, yours is the only fingering approach I've ever seen that doesn't make me want to punch someone in the face. I mean shouldn't Dorian and mixolydian layout similarly on the fretboard since they're mostly the same notes? Yours is pure simplicity and solves that problem.)
Anyway...Not trying to open a can of worms.
Thanks for all you do!Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 09-30-2014 at 10:23 PM.
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This thread is a bit like a bad whodunnit novel - you're sick of reading it but you want to see the conclusion.
The above is a joke, it may not be funny but it's getting to the point where this post needs more humour and since the original poster isn't here (posting) this may be the time.
P.s. Mr Beaumont - you can dabble in jazz, its a splendid idea. If I had never dabbled in jazz I wouldn't play it and if I don't stop reading of these kinds of topics/replies on this forum I am beginning to feel I may not play it again.
P.P.S. please take the above as humour because I am in a bad mood.
P.P.P.S. It really is my humour, really, honestly.
P.P.P.P.S. I should probably read the forum less though
P.P.P.P.P.S. Just kidding
If the original poster is still looking, he may be confused now, though at this point he probably already is.
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Yeah, you're right. But 1% isn't BS. Anyways, everyone learns differently. If I have the opportunity to learn directly from a master, I'll take it. Books are a waste of time for me. YMMV Originally Posted by Reg
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As I understand Reg in the broadest sense (particulrities I'm not that much interested in, because that's how I understand it), it is more less common sense advice.
It's about finding your own standard way to come to a level where common practice is just that. Concepts you can develop from, into whatever's supposed to be played. Each way is equally good if it get the job done. It is not about creating masterpieces, it is about getting the job done in timely manner, with least ammount of effort, least possibility of making mistake, while not sounding like, earlier in the thread described, dreadfull Jazz bands from local bars, noodling over Bossas and worn out standards.
It is not really important if you will come to adequate pool of notes thinking of melodic minor, or transposed pentatonic, or flattened 4th mode of something else, or whatever, as long as you play those notes in appropriate style, with good time and obvious intention. Of course, notes have to be adequate for intention and style.
Concepts, you should pick them so not to let you down in crucial moments, leaving you with only crappiest ways out, or even worse, without a clue. They should cover the broaadest set of expected possibilities. With unexpected you deal as it comes.
Also, you have to know physical aspects and limits of yourself and your instrument. Meaning, have one system that works over broadest set of requirements and stick to it.
When it come's to stretch, you'll develop solutions over time, as they come (deja vu?).
IMO, First you get the idea about the sound and notes you'd to make, then you do it, than you explain to yourself what you have done, so you could do it again. IMO, it is impossible to read, for example, about modal interchange (not that I know what it is) and start doing it.
You have to play an example, have to stumble on it by accident, while playing, and say ... oh, yeah! ... what was that? ..., scratch scratch... oh my... it was modal interchange! One by one, you develop your standard way of doing things, in accordance to common practice (meaning, you can play with other people, supposedly experienced and good players, without getting in their way and without giving impression of pompous ass, utter fool and without revealing how bad player you really are) and one by one you explain your own concepts to yourself. Neverending story, but fun and your own way.
Otherwise, you can take any of 4 Reg's, or other teacher's concepts, read about it, try to decipher what exactly he meant to say ..., but in the end, you have to recognize that concept within music and understand the way which is the common practice to use that one. Then find your way to addapt the concept for application in any given situation ... seams long and winding road... neverending story, again ... It's up to you to decide how many questions you want answered by teacher, better said, it's up to your wallet.
IMO.Last edited by Vladan; 09-30-2014 at 07:18 PM.
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I often sound pompous when talking about modal interchange
ok this thread has gone above and beyond my realms of understanding. I think I'm going to have to say count me out now. If this was my first topic about jazz I'd have decided to go back to rock.
Goodbye everybody. ... ive got to go.. got to leave you all behind to face the truth.
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Common sense finally did it for you? Originally Posted by fleaaaaaa
I often sound pompous when talking about modal interchange ok this thread has gone above and beyond my realms of understanding. I think I'm going to have to say count me out now. If this was my first topic about jazz I'd have decided to go back to rock.
Goodbye everybody. ... ive got to go.. got to leave you all behind to face the truth.
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Didn't really follow the whole thread, but I'm not sure I get how telling someone that jazz is hard resulted in such a shit storm.
Jazz is hard.
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Jazz IS hard. But when someone asks "how do I get started?", we tend to also answer a lot of UNASKED questions which are a lot more overwhelming for the asker such as: Originally Posted by ecj
What are ALL of the elements I need to include in my study to play jazz at a high level?
What does it take to be a pro? How long will it take to get there?
These are good questions, but I think we're being untrue to our former- beginner selves by including a thousand things and saying it'll take 12 years to be able to play ANYTHING decent. Overall scope is important, and we need to all think about it at certain levels, but I think most of us who are learning are also looking for "the next thing" not just "every thing".
Does/did everyone begin with the expectation of gigging or playing professionally? Is there any benefit to the process in and of itself?Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 09-30-2014 at 07:03 PM.
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@Vladan, if you(me) don't know what modal interchange is, how will you recognize it when you stumble across it?
P.S. I don't understand what modal interchange is either. But I may know what it is under a different name. Does it mean substituting one mode for another? 
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I don't know if hard is the correct word, Jazz does take more dedication and work than other styles. Isn't that what is part of the attraction Jazz is something you can study and explore till the day you die. It's the challenge to keep finding new ways thru a tune or set of changes. Originally Posted by ecj
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I think it's hard, in the sense that it takes a lot of work and dedication. Isn't that what makes something hard? I mean NOTHING is really hard unless you don't work at it, right? For me jazz is something that's been a life's work.
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I think if you go back and look at the first page, you'll see that there was really only one poster who thought he had to give the OP tough love and got hyperbolic about needing decades of practice. Everyone else was giving him good, first-step advice like, "Learn to solo just using arpeggios instead of scales," or "Check out this book," or, "Start listening as much as possible." Hell, two guys even tell him within the first 12 replies not to worry too much about theory at first and to just start absorbing some melodic material. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
I think the problem is that 99% of the people on this forum are really helpful and friendly, and then there are a few folks who have some issues that tend to pop up and get in pissing contests in lots and lots of threads.
It also seems to be the case that these individuals don't have any sound clips to post, which is how they get away with it. If I was opining as though I was some magnificent revolutionary performer, it wouldn't take people long to listen to my clips and realize that I'm just a student like everyone else who is trying to put things together.
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I understand. I'm probably a little touchy about this. I also understand that the OP is kind of questionable in terms of "skimming" Levine and the Berklee book and not getting much out of them, but it's very frequently the case that first-time posts elicit multiple responses from people who feel the need to come in and bust their chops and warn them of how hard it all is. Originally Posted by ecj
Just like many feel that people need to post their playing to back up lofty claims, I think we need to be honest about our own experience before we answer these kind of questions in such an assuming way and rain on first-timer's parade so heavily.
How did we learn to play? Where did we start? Did we, in fact, begin with everything? When we asked more experienced players, did they warn us off and insinuate that it wasn't for mere mortals or were they encouraging to us? Was playing professionally on our minds when we started with Mickey Baker or whatever?
I think I was in high school when I got my first Baker book. I thought it was a fun aspect of my playing hobby. I didn't care about being serious about jazz at the time. I laid off of jazz between then and now. I certainly didn't have any professional or gigging aspirations. I just loved those wonderfully "complex" :-) sounding chords.
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To be clear I only ask people to post their playing if they're being overly pedantic or arrogant and come off as holier than thou. Don't get me wrong. I don't there's anything wrong with any of that. Just let's hear you. If you're going to talk like an expert giving everyone else very learned expert advice don't suddenly become shy about your playing, you know?
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Premisse is you know some theory and have sources to learn more. As you learn, you are able to explain same things in different terms, as easy and thorough as possible. I was saying I think you can not just read about something and immediately start playing it, all on your own. Originally Posted by edh
@Vladan, if you(me) don't know what modal interchange is, how will you recognize it when you stumble across it?
P.S. I don't understand what modal interchange is either. But I may know what it is under a different name. Does it mean substituting one mode for another?
I think once I understood modal interchange as borrowing notes from modes other than one of the moment. You play one thing, but where and when is applicable, or needed you may/ may have to borrow.
Re: Post your playing thing
I think it is a good thing to have a reference. I don't think One has any less right to critique, even in an expert kind of way, just because can not play at that level, but it gives a clue what expertise may be based on and how deep it realy is. Of course that would mean we'd have to listen to the clips of that person, which imany are not willing to do.Last edited by Vladan; 10-01-2014 at 03:34 AM.
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Music is music. Jazz is just sophisticated music. The irony is that when you reflect on it, the skills you may have developed over a half century of study and playing seem so much a part of you and so simple. But if asked to "explain how to play jazz", the answer may seem complex. Because it is not a list of ten things you should do daily like a check list.
I was a good classical player before I turned sixteen and played in rock and "jazz fusion" bands through college. Yet, by comparison my playing and understanding is deeper and much more 'free' today. What is the meaning of free? I can play with greater freedom of expression and emotional depth than when I was twenty. I am not intimidated by jazz but rather 'enthralled'.
Jazz can be intimidating. Today I happened to be reading biographical material about some of the great jazz players of our time. I was reading about the late great Canadian pianist, Oscar Petersen, recognized as one of the finest jazz pianists of all time. Oscar was trained in classical music as a child, winning a national competition at the age of fourteen, after which he quit school to play professionally. Joe Pass was quoted as saying that of all the musicians he knew, that OP and Art Tatum were the two most accomplished players who had taken their mastery of their instrument to the deepest level. Yet, Oscar was intimidated by Art, and though they were friends, he rarely played in Art's presence. Imagine that level of humility. That is an artist.
I always liken playing music and jazz to a journey, and as some Chinese proverb goes, a journey of a thousand miles begins with a few steps. I do believe that a solid technical and musical theory base is the best way to launch that journey, but not the only way. The foundation includes the ability to play the major and minor diatonic scales properly, the development of ears to hear the intervals, and certainly the ability to read notation. The journey is one of daily learning and development of a special skill that is honed by devotion to one's "goal beyond" - that love of music and the desire to express your devotion. As we know, love can be a kind of addiction. Yet it is also a journey of self-liberation of the spirit.
I know this all sounds abstract and does not answer the question "how do I learn to play jazz". The answer is too complex to put simply into words. It includes developing your ears and your technical fluency with your instrument(s). Reading and becoming knowledgeable about music theory and the legacy of jazz music. Learning jazz tunes. And one fine day, when you look back on a lifetime of devotion and the joy of playing music along with the pain, you realize that you have come a long way on that journey that will never end until your life is done. While you may never play on stage at Carnegie Hall, hopefully the journey itself is its own reward and your love and devotion to your goals beyond have set you free to express the love and addiction that compelled you to take those first steps.
JayLast edited by targuit; 10-01-2014 at 03:01 AM.
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Or you can buy my book for $29.99 where you will learn to chant the modes as you play....blah, blah, blah..... dorian, mixolydian, locrian, saturnalian...
Wikipedofilia - Saturnalia is a festival of light leading to the winter solstice, with the abundant presence of candles symbolizing the quest for knowledge and truth.[5] The renewal of light and the coming of the new year was celebrated in the later Roman Empire at the Dies Natalis of Sol Invictus, the "Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun," on December 25.[6]Last edited by targuit; 10-01-2014 at 03:25 AM.
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I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I WASN'T talking directly about posting playing. It was a comparison.
I was saying that it's easy to get in a mode where we're preaching at people. In the same way that the "post if you're going to preach" idea is a way of ensuring that people are honest and real, and don't get too full of themselves, shouldn't we have the same idea about preaching at beginners who simply want to know how to play?
Before we preach about complexity , warn them off of learning jazz at all, or generally rain on their parade, maybe we could take a breath?
Keep it real. Think about it. How did YOU actually learn? At the beginning.... How were you introduced to playing Jazz? How did you start? Did you have the end in mind at the beginning? How did experienced players respond to your requests for direction? Did they warn you away from playing Jazz? Did you seriously have ideas of becoming a professional jazz player when you first learned ANY jazz, or was it purely for the fun and enjoyment of it ?
I'm talking about honesty. I don't think most people, even the preachers, began with those kind of perspectives. I think there's pleasure in the process of learning to play. For a lot of players, it ain't all about getting to the end, maybe ever.
Again this isn't aimed at anyone who ever said anything about posting playing. I wasn't really talking about that. I was talking about the general tendency to crap on first-time posters without first being honest about one's own experience. I don't think we should expect a lot more from beginners then we, ourselves, experienced. Not to mention the fact that there are many paths, and not everyone's goals are the same .Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 10-01-2014 at 09:53 AM. Reason: Stupid phone post...
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Most skills have different levels and it can be said of pretty much all skills that it can take your entire life time. It all depends on the level you want to go to.
However it is unwise to say to a beginner that it will take their entire life. It may only take them a year to achieve what they want from a skill. It may also put them off starting if you make the task seem insurmountable.
Cooking is a good example of this; some people only eat out of necessity so being able to microwave a meal may be ok for them. Some develp an urge to cook for family and friends. Some want to be a chef. Some want to be a worldwide acclaimed chef. I believe even the microwave chef can evolve through each step or stick at one a but none of those are shameful. They all result in being fed.
All music paths result in making sounds.
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I can't remember what I said... but something like the OP was all BS, a fake post. One post and the details of that post didn't really add up... still feel that way. Lets skip the BS about baby sitting new players and telling them...sure anyone can play Jazz guitar.
Practice these concepts or whatever and in a year or so... you'll be a Jazz guitarist. I'm sure there are a few super beings that might be able to walk that road... I've never really meet any. Met some incredible young musicians that could memorize almost anything and put in enough time to have some technique. Anyway... just developing enough basic musicianship to really be able to approach jazz takes serious commitment. Why sugar coat it.
I call a lot of info BS, because, that's what I feel. Talk to other jazz players, not their BS interviews or one liners etc... After a gig... have a conversation... most are generally not in a hurry.(I did as a kid)
Hasn't there already been a few threads which got into the somewhat physical requirement of playing jazz. Use basic 80/20 rule. Throw out extremes, 10% of of top and bottom details, end up with 80% that most agree on.
I would still think the resulting views will still only reflect who the input if from, but at least you would have a starting point, a reference to start from etc...
I'm not some hot shot kid, I've been around and have put in the organized time. Not so much on playing, did that at a very early age and played gigs...still do. I'm a middle of the road pro, just happen to read very well and have very good understandings about musicianship and music, which helps cover weak links of my playing. I can feel, play and understand grooves, I'm good at and enjoy making other players sound good.
These are jazz skills in my book... at least from a rhythm section players perspective.
I'm not selling or trying to sell anything, anyone is free to use, ask anything, copy any thing I play, write or what ever.
I generally will answer any question and I'm always open to new views, or understandings. Actually I dig having to rethink what I think I understand... opening new doors is always fun.
I know I'm full of BS... who cares. Like I said when I first joined this forum... I just wanted to make guitarist better musicians, I was sick of the jokes and one liners about guitarists... of which most were true, that have been going on for years. I've done my part... I can back up my playing, I joke about horn players.Last edited by Reg; 10-01-2014 at 08:20 PM.
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Great post as usual Reg! But this! Yeah me too. I remember in the beginning I started playing flute as well. I traveled down to House of Woodwinds in Oakland I think. The repair man was jolly and talking to me. He asked, "You said you play another instrument too. What else do you play?" When I told him guitar he turned his back to me and never said another word. That burned me. Originally Posted by Reg
I've played in orchestras, and like you, a lot of reading gigs. Although I'm sure I don't read as well as you do, I do OK. It's been a long while since the conductor had to stop and have me read down a part. Most often blending, and balance can be an issue.
Most guitarists have no idea that they're joked on by other instrumentalists. Guitarists have a bad reputation. Part of my motivation has been to change that. In a jazz band, stage band, orchestra, they'll give the guitar the rock solos, figuring the conductor will have to point to the guitarists and mouth, "Play NOW, G Blues!" Clarinetists and sax, horn players start out reading and understand the fundamentals of music very well BEFORE they start playing jazz. I'm tired of guitar players being the redheaded step child of the band and the butt of all jokes.
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Ok... I'm lost. Why are guitarists considered a joke? Because they often can't read music? There is a book by Nat shapiro called "hear me talkin to ya?". In the early part of the book it deals with storyville musicians. Many can't read and rely solely on their ears. It's said one musician only needed to hear a tune once to play the Melody back.
Or was it because they can only play the blues? If so jazz is built on the blues.
Now... About the super beings who learn jazz in a year. Some people just want to play a chord melody or comp through some changes. Sometime this leads to more. .. sometimes it doesn't. You may not consider somebody like that a jazz guitarist. .. the reason I bring this up is that is how I started. I'm not sure you would consider me a jazz guitarist but I consider myself a beginner jazz guitarist.Last edited by fleaaaaaa; 10-02-2014 at 02:28 AM.
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