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If someone says to me 'modes' the automatic response is to go through the explanations of scales from non-root to non-root, etc, ad nauseam. But in practice it just means using a (usually familiar) scale in a musical way to get the desired result, like C major over Dm7 rather than F or Bb major. In any case, it wouldn't be D harmonic minor because of the C natural.
Just common sense, really. All they've done, with modal tunes, is taken the Dm7 out of the usual 2-5-1 context. But the same 'rules' apply. And, just to be difficult, as it's jazz, you can still use the harmonic and melodic notes anyway for interest's sake :-)
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10-11-2019 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Reg
2) yes I think this is the key point. You have to be out there playing. I’m lucky I’ve done some gigs, I found a niche, which equipped me with some basic stuff, although I got tired of that style.
3) knowing what a student needs to know and in what order might save them time I spaffed away on bullshit
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Yea Rag... you just use what you believe to be modal, and the term mode, doesn't mean much anymore. Pretty standard approach.
But... again who cares.
BOOMERS, there are definitely different views of what works, when we just use our ears. It is also fun at gigs during breaks or in pits to have music discussions, when the theory being discussed is about what we're playing. It's interesting how many players don't recognize basic harmonic structure and how it functions within Form. I know I have to define some really basic shit sometimes, gently.
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Yeah, we get hung up on words. I guess because it's easier to argue aboutI was playing the Egyptian by Curtis Fuller this week. 1966. So like a Asus very "blues" thing to an E phyrgian dominant idea. I suppose a "modal" tune. Did I need modes to play it? No. Did modes somehow hurt my ability to be creative or some garbage? Nope. Certainly different from using a mode/scale to access a sound on a tune with more/functional changes. But it's all mapping, posibilities, you can play what you know or see what else is out there...it's all just organizing the same 12 notes, no magic.
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Originally Posted by pauln
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I am no expert by any means, but thinking about modes kinda allows me to spread out. The accented intervals lead me to other accented intervals then to resolutions. I view the aspects that get exposed in my playing as springboards to creativity. That said, it is mostly from an intuitive perspective for me. I kinda know what I am doing, but if I stopped to figure it all out on paper I would be in for some serious brain damage. Hat's off to those that figure it all out, but I am a hobbyist for sure.
Last edited by lammie200; 10-11-2019 at 12:38 PM.
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I learned from five teachers over a course of 5+ decades. Mostly, these are names you might know. I've already dragged Warren Nunes into this, but I'll leave the others out for now. //Compared to a structured approach like Berklee's, this was more of a patchwork, with some patches missing. I got a lot of good stuff from it, but there are a couple of things I now consider important which none of my teachers ever broached. //1. Ear training. Nobody ever said, "kid, you can improve your ear and here's how." //2. Surprisingly, transcription. Nobody ever pushed it. Of course, I knew about it because every musician, myself included, eventually wants to copy something from a recording. But, I was never assigned to transcribe anything. Maybe because the teachers were concerned about driving their students away? //3. The basic skill of singing a line and playing it a moment later -- with the goal of playing it simultaneously. I now practice this in a structured way. Comping through a section of a tune while scat singing, and then repeating the section while playing the line I sang. One of the things I learned from doing this is that I'm already able to imagine better lines than I was playing without singing. This suggests that the cutting edge for me is not to be learning new sounds from, say, combinations of random triads and bass notes. Rather, it's to be able to play the sounds I can already hear in my mind. Doing this at a gig or jam requires some discipline. //4. There was never any scat singing. Looks odd even as I write this. But, there's an argument that the best lines are the ones that you can sing from the heart. And, arguably, a great way to expand one's repertoire of sounds would be to start by singing them. I believe that this is done in some programs. I have read that Herb Ellis scatted whenever he was soloing, presumably for this reason. One guess as to why it wasn't included is that it's harder than learning a new fingering pattern. Also, that my teachers mostly thought of the lessons from the point of view of guitar, not music in general. //
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I've never understood the singing lark. I can sing but la-la-ing some 'jazz lines' with my voice... I wouldn't know where to start. It would be rubbish. I don't even have to try it to know that!
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Originally Posted by Reg
People still gig every night here in London, but it seems that this is not true everywhere.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
But singing is a traditionally a good way to access the aural side of the brain...
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more Keith Jarrett than George Benson
Unless I am actually singing - i.e. a song - I'm too busy looking at what I'm doing. I'd say it was probably a distraction to sing as well. I definitely know what a played line will sound like but I've no desire to sing along with it (although I could if I wanted to). I'm probably feeling the whole thing much more internally, which might be my way of 'singing' it. To me, singing a note with feeling is the same as playing a note with feeling; it seems unnecessary to do both together.
But I suppose the singing must have a point otherwise people wouldn't do it.Last edited by ragman1; 10-12-2019 at 07:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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How do you do it? Do you record what you sing in rehearsal then work it out on the guitar? You're surely not saying you sing impromptu in performance and simultaneously play it as well!
Or are you?
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How can you navigate the instrument if you don't "map" the right notes in all positions.
Originally Posted by christianm77
I felt from the first post that the OP was looking for a basic map of the board to get all the stops in any key or position.
I didn't get the impression that the OP was looking for any heavy theory of which mode over what chord etc and honestly don't think
that it works in a sub-topic of "Getting Started"...but I could have missed the nuance.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
In performance, there are some people who do it Benson style, with a mic, even singing harmony, but I've never tried that. I find that, when I'm relaxed enough, I can scat and play simultaneously. I don't usually achieve 100% correspondence and I'm not even sure that's the goal. But, I do notice that it improves the solo. The negative is that it takes a lot of concentration -- and I worry that I may not be listening to the other players as attentively as I should because I'm thinking too hard about putting the scatted line on the guitar.
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I'm thinking too hard about putting the scatted line on the guitar
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
'do the 7 modes of the major scale have movable patterns'
which rather implies he already knows about modes etc. Anyway, the natural answer to that is yes, like any scale.
But, hey, page 4 now, it would be a miracle if the thread was still answering the original question!
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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11 years later
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Originally Posted by ragman1
I get the distinct feeling that some people are getting discouraged over the deep end discussions that
can sometimes get injected into a "Getting Started" thread.
If you were a student of mine I'd say.... descend in a cycle of 6th's from Cmaj7 xx10121212 to Fmaj7 1 3 2 2 xx here's your money back and
come back when you can do that.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
'Gould was widely known for his unusual habits. He often hummed or sang while he played, and his audio engineers were not always successful in excluding his voice from recordings.
Gould claimed that his singing was unconscious and increased in proportion to his inability to produce his intended interpretation from a given piano. It is likely that this habit originated in his having been taught by his mother to "sing everything that he played", as his biographer Kevin Bazzana puts it. This became "an unbreakable (and notorious) habit".
Some of Gould's recordings were severely criticised because of this background "vocalising". For example, a reviewer of his 1981 re-recording of the Goldberg Variations opined that many listeners would "find the groans and croons intolerable".'
Glenn Gould - WikipediaLast edited by ragman1; 10-12-2019 at 07:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
Like-New Gibson ES-335's
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