Frustrated and ready to give up playing guitar!

**Stevebol** · 04-29-2013, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by dallasblues

This is kinda what I'm starting to wonder. Am I trying to run before I've learned to walk? There's some Bebop that I'd really like to play. But at this stage, I just don't "get it" yet. I feel like I'm trying to force it to happen. It's like cramming a square peg through a round hole. However, I can listen to Count Basie or Charlie Christian and can hear and feel what's going on. My foot taps and it feels good. When I listen to Charlie Parker or Sonny Rollins (whom I love) I start thinking and trying to figure it out. It's not a feel thing there, it's analytical. That's when I get frustrated.

My background might be similar to yours in a way. I've been playing 40+ years. For many years people tried to get me to be a Stevie Ray Vaughn clone and I always resisted. I played a lot of blues from the start but I also played Charlie Christian swing. I always included it.
Bebop is tough and swing is much more accessable. It's better to be a good swing guitarist than a bad bop guitarist. I would definitely learn jazz progressively in your shoes. You could set aside a certain amount of time for bop but I'd focus on swing the majority of the time. Spend a little time on good Charlie Parker heads like 'Donna Lee' and 'Blues for Alice'. They sound good at any speed and I think of the heads as solos. There's a wealth of ideas there that will keep you going. The majority of the time- Charlie Christian. Everything Charlie Christian, and Freddie Green big band rhythm. Grab Peter Broadbents bio about Charlie for a fun read. It will get you into the swing of things.
Boppers will tell you to throw the baby out with the bathwater and throw the whole spectrum of jazz at you. You'll only get frustrated. Be selective with what you listen to. Christian was a master at long solos and repitition so listen to the non-Goodman recordings a lot. Charlie Christian, a few Bird charts, a little Wes. See how Wes dealt with fast tempos.
Blues guitarists usually play chords in a relaxed way and swing takes a little most strength. Learn your 3-4 voice chords and practice slowly shifting between them. I figured them out on my own but you can dig them up somewhere. Watch out for tabs of Charlie Christian solos. They have odd fingerings. Try to think of riffing off of chords. If you're playing in A for example there will be tons of licks off of the V chord- E7. Think of playing riffs out of different chords and postions, just like you would in blues. Maybe 4 differnt postions for one chord. Experiment.
Give Eddie Lang a listen too. And Django. It's not like Charlie Christian was the only guy who could play guitar back then. I'd still choose him or someone from that era and make him the main focus.

You'll be comfortable with the swing language if you know blues. You just have to think a little quicker. Blues tempos and meters are more difficult than the basic swing groove. For me anyway.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-29-2013, 12:16 PM

I definitely think you gotta go with what you can hear...start with CC...can't really go wrong...he kinda wrote the book for guitar players.

And you gotta learn tunes...there has to be a context for this stuff...

**AmundLauritzen** · 04-29-2013, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by dallasblues

Thank you! It does!

So far, the jazz I'm trying to learn is all over the map. For instance, I might listen to Charlie Christian or Count Basie in the morning, Wes Montgomery at lunch, and Sonny Rollins or Coltrane in the evening. By the time I go to bed, I have multiple approaches to soloing rattling around in my head and feel overwhelmed. That being said, Charlie Christian's solos are the easiest for me to hear, feel and understand. They speak to me louder than just about anyone else's at the moment and I can visualize myself playing them. While Wes Montgomery and Rollins certainly give me a buzz, their solos just overwhelm me right now. Should I put them on the back-burner for now and focus on what speaks to me?

Absolutely! The more something hits home, the more likely it is that it'll start creeping into your playing. I'd say only transcribe what you really like. Some teachers say "transcribe [insert name here]", but if you don't dig that player it's a waste of time. When you sit down and try to work out a phrase or a solo by a player you really like, practicing is all that much more fun. Charlie Christian is a great place to start, because his phrases are simple but very rhythmically strong and musical. Many of the bebop guitar players who emerged in the 50's started out with Charlie Christian. Tal Farlow, Herb Ellis and Charlie Byrd. Even Wes has a foundation in Charlie Christians solos. Since his phrases are harmonically simple and rhythmically open, they are perfect as blueprints for your own phrases. You can attach new ideas to the phrases and twist them around to create new music. That is not always so simple if you're working with complex phrases by Metheny or Rosenwinkel for example.

If you work with Charlie Christians phrases alongside with making up your own lines, you'll come a long way. Use scales and arpeggios as a template for constructing your own lines.
Here's a nice way I like to work to get licks into my playing and make them a natural part of my vocab:

On a tune, pick out the part that gives you the most trouble or that you have difficulty working on. Say you're working on "Bye Bye Blackbird" in the key of F and the bar with Bbm7 to Eb7 gives you trouble, but the rest of the tune you have no problem playing over.

Now listen to a player you want to learn from playing that tune. Pick out a chorus where he plays over those chords where you really like what he's doing. Learn just that phrase. If it's a fast phrase, you can use a program like "Transcribe" to slow down the audio but retain the pitch so you can pick out and learn the phrase easier.

Now improvise freely on the tune, but whenever that part comes around, play that lick you learned.

When you really know that lick, you can transcribe another one and add that. This is how you build a vocabulary.

If there are several places in the tune giving you problems, you can work on more licks simultaneously. Maybe the F7 on the bridge of "Bye Bye Blackbird" is giving you trouble. Learn a lick by your favorite player over that chord. Improvise freely on the form, but when the F7 part comes around and the Bbm7 to Eb7 part comes around, play those licks.

After a while, you'll be able to lead in and out of the licks in a natural way. When you get even more practice, you'll find the lick has changed completely from it's original form, because you'll find yourself varying it rhythmically and altering it into something different.

I took "Bye Bye Blackbird" as an example, but you can use whatever tune you're working on.

**danwaineo** · 04-29-2013, 01:02 PM

You can probably play better than you think. My suggestion is as follows:

1. Put on a standard in the 60 to 100 bpm range.
2. Put your hands randomly somewhere on the fret board
3. Play by ear (don't think about scales chords etc.), but let your ear and intuition guide you. Be very careful to play in time.
4. Listen very closely to what you are playing

Record yourself if you can. You might be surprised.

**MattC** · 04-29-2013, 08:41 PM

I also agree with the comments about carefully choosing who you study and transcribe. Listen to whatever you like, but for transcribing and serious study, be selective. Ask yourself, if you had to pick only 2 or 3 players on which to base your sound, who would they be? Just making the decision in the first place might be revealing, let along the work of transcribing and studying!

Matt

**bobby d** · 04-30-2013, 12:00 AM

I know how you feel - I first started working on Jazz (on and off) nearly 40 years ago and I have limitations. I decided quite a while ago that I don't wanna play Charlie Parker or anything that's real technical. I'm pretty darn good at playing the blues, and I like Jazz with a blues feel. I like melodic phrases with some dissonance, but not way out there!

You've been given some good advice here, and I have some similar suggestions.

Don't listen to so much music. In fact, pick one song that you really like and listen to it over and over. You should end up with a recording of it in your head, including the guitar solo.

Next, record yourself playing the chords of that song at a slower pace. Use that to jam along with, improvising and trying different ideas. When you're ready make another recording of the progression at a faster pace.

Repeat the process with another song by a guitarist that you like and that isn't so challenging that you want to give up.

**Jimmy blue note** · 04-30-2013, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by garydriver5

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**icheme** · 04-30-2013, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by dallasblues

Hey guys. I've played guitar for almost 25 years now. It's mostly been blues with occasional rock and country. However, jazz was always my achilles heel. I was afraid of it. Striving to conquer those fears I dedicated myself to learning it a year and a half ago. I've played or listened to little else in that time and have been turned on to some amazing artists. I've been working with a jazz guitar teacher once a week on this stuff the entire time and feel like I've learned a lot. I'm particularly excited about what I've learned about comping and chord structures. I've got a long ways to go with those still but am really enjoying hearing how they work over the tunes I'm practicing. Unfortunately... soloing is another thing. I just don't get it I guess. My instructor has been trying his best to help me get it, but I just simply don't understand the thinking that goes into creating a solo. After 25 years of playing, I'm certain I can make my hands do whatever my brain tells them to do. It's just that I'm stuck. I can learn arpeggios and scales and even play them over the chord changes until I'm blue in the face but I'm still not hearing it. So, I've listened over and over to horn players soloing. I've tried transcribing them but always end up frustrated. Too damn fast! I also just don't see how they're coming up with what they're playing. Was I just ruined by years of blues, rock, and country. Those are so much simpler to solo over. I had nice little patterns on the fretboard to base my solos from. Then I'd just move a few notes around that pattern to give them character. That doesn't seem to be appropriate in jazz. I'm at my wits end and am about to say to hell with all this. But I don't wanna give up. Please help. Please give me some insight. Is it going to take another 25 years before I'm proficient enough to play a simple solo?

Hello Dallasblues!

First, your message really touched me , because I've been there too , now those days are gone (but I'm still work my a.. off)
My brother is older than me , is 12 years older, he began guitar when he was 16 (I was 4) and I began guitar when I was 6(self taught).
Now were in 2013, and I help my brother to get to the next level/plateau.. whatever you wanna call it.
First you are not ruined by years of blues country...it's in your fingers now, so it will help in the end to create/have your own style because of your own history. and a good rock country blues solo is not that easy!!!
Blues is the greatest start imo to learn jazz, the difference in jazz is the articulation imo.
I suppose you already know the pentatonic scale inside out so start from here
My advice would be to listen loads of grant green to get a feel , I know people suggest to listen to horns, but my advice is to listen first to guitar players, that way you'll have the guitar language, and not haing to translate horns language into guitar which is another task!
WORK SLOW! WORK SLOW! WORK SLOW!
first learn bluesjazz (joe pass chords) I mean learn them, I mean reapeat them to the point they become second nature (as you did with the pentatonic for blues/rock solos)
there is no shortcuts but you'll get them
learn some solos you likeget them in your fingers then try to understand why (theory aspect), but learn to play first.
it only require work and commitment, I've been ready to give up too in the past but I didn't!

learn the melodic minor scale inside out and learn to use it in a II V I concept WORK SLOW!
really a lot of the jazz vocabulary is there!

hope this helps, we're in this together guitar brother!

**Solo Flight** · 04-30-2013, 10:16 AM

JFK could have been talking about learning jazz guitar when he said the following (in September of 1962, when we were way behind the Russians in the space race):

"We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."

Jazz is hard but don't give up.

**dallasblues** · 05-02-2013, 01:46 PM

Thank you all for the words of wisdom and encouragement. While I've played guitar for over 25 years, I'm a newbie when it comes to jazz. I think it's because of this that I've become so frustrated.

**Stevebol** · 05-02-2013, 05:52 PM

There's no sense in giving up. I've been trying to play bop like crazy the last couple years but there's almost no scene to speak of. Not sure what to do. I decided to look into playing blues again but this time I'm not going to try to sing. There are no great singers anymore and I sure can't sing. If you can deal with that reality then there are going to be opportunities playing blues. People like to hear it. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop playing jazz. Maybe I'll try to incorporate a little more into my playing but basically do it as a hobby.

Don't give up but try to be realistic. Take what they give you.

If you're in Texas just don't play metal. Doesn't matter what else you do.

**dallasblues** · 05-02-2013, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Stevebol

There's no sense in giving up. I've been trying to play bop like crazy the last couple years but there's almost no scene to speak of. Not sure what to do. I decided to look into playing blues again but this time I'm not going to try to sing. There are no great singers anymore and I sure can't sing. If you can deal with that reality then there are going to be opportunities playing blues. People like to hear it. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop playing jazz. Maybe I'll try to incorporate a little more into my playing but basically do it as a hobby.

Don't give up but try to be realistic. Take what they give you.

If you're in Texas just don't play metal. Doesn't matter what else you do.

Ha! Well... I'm definitely in Texas, but I haven't played a metal song since sometime in the late 80's. So I think I'm alright there. There's still some blues down here. However the blues scene isn't as robust as it was 10-15 years ago. I'm not sure I'm aware of any jazz scene though. Even if I get past this mental/creative block I don't know where and with whom I'd even play this music. That's not the driving force to learn the music of course. But I'm certain that the way to get really good is to play with other musicians.

**jayx123** · 05-03-2013, 07:12 AM

I know a lot of guys here don't like key center approach but I think this approach will do you good at the stage you are at. Take a simple standard like "Autumn Leaves" which is in the key of G major and do the following:
1. improvise eighth notes with only the the scale notes and work on your swing triplet feel.
2. take the simple melody of the tune and change it a bit using the notes of the G major scale.
3. improvise only on the scale notes and try to make rhythm variations (half notes quarter notes etc).
4. add chromatic notes between the scale notes on the weak beat first try to create a line going from one scale note then a half step and then to the next scale note.

**pubylakeg** · 07-16-2013, 02:39 PM

I'd say to anyone in the early stages, or hitting a wall is to get back to Charlie Christian & Lester Young.Also I'd recommend Steve Rochinski's book "The Motivic Basis of Jazz Guitar Improvisation"

**marcwv** · 07-16-2013, 03:36 PM

It would be interesting to hear what your playing! Sometimes we are super criticle of ourselves.
You still have patterns to rely on also in Jazz. Also do you practice with already recorded tracks?
If you would like you could send me a track or put one on soundcloud site so I can go over it with you!
Here are some of mine on sound cloud:www.soundcloud.com\marcwv
My email is marcwv@socal.rr.com
Regards, Marc

**jazzuki** · 07-16-2013, 04:06 PM

Dallasblues.I'm not going to pontificate as enough advice has been give already=but DONT give up.I've been playing for 70 yrs.and we all have a love hate relationship with this blasted tortuous wonderful instrument none more so than me. But I just couldn't give up as I would be totally lost without it and I really enjoy playing to my limited abilities. Keep on Pickin!

**AlsoRan** · 07-16-2013, 07:49 PM

I looked up that book.

You will not believe how much one person is asking for it on Amazon.

The Motivic Basis for Jazz Guitar Improvisation: Steve Rochinski: 9780793588503: Amazon.com: Books

Let me give you a hint, I could buy a brand new Gibson ES-335 from an authorized Gibson Dealer.

**Jamesrohr1** · 11-16-2019, 10:48 PM

I read your post and really identify with your problem as I’m in exactly the same boat. I’ve also been playing other music for decades and am trying to unravel Jazz. I study, practice, and listen to Jazz every day but I make zero progress. I still can’t even play something simple over Autumn Leaves after all these years!

So it’s probably a long shot that you’re even still on this forum, but if so, did you ever get to the point where you could improvise Bop? Because if so, I’d love to hear how you did it.

Unfortunately I don’t have a teacher and am trying to teach myself. It’s overwhelming most days so hearing a success story from someone in a similar position would be most welcome.

Thanks.

**rintincop** · 11-18-2019, 03:08 PM

Jazz teaching has overcomplicated matters. Just keep playing the Barry Harris 5432 (and 876b6) phrases over and over and you will get it.

They alternate between two cases: a pivot of chord tones (arp) and a triple chromatic enclosure of non-chord tones. Simple in theory. These are the two highest forms of embellishment and it's easy when conceptualized this way. It will get you there.

Also his chromatic approach note before 3rds, triad arps, and finally 7th chord arps. Also, his chromatic scale device. You've got it all then. Oh don't forget some blues and triplets.

**grahambop** · 11-18-2019, 03:49 PM

If you’re trying to learn bop improvising, check out this YouTube channel, it might help you a bit:

Things I've Learned From Barry Harris
- YouTube

**Jamesrohr1** · 11-18-2019, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by rintincop

Jazz teaching has overcomplicated matters. Just keep playing the Barrty Harris 5432 (and 876b6) phrases over and over and you will get it. They alternate between two cases: a pivot of chord tones (arp) and a triple chromatic enclosure of non-chord tones. Simple in theory. These are the two highest forms of embellishment and it's easy when conceptualized this way. It will get you there. Also his chromatic approach note before 3rds, triad arps, and finally 7th chord arps. Also, his chromatic scale device. You've got it all then. Oh don't forget some blues and triplets.

Lord I have to chuckle a bit. I understood the first sentence you typed and then nothing after that. Over complicated indeed! Wow.

**grahambop** · 11-18-2019, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1

Lord I have to chuckle a bit. I understood the first sentence you typed and then nothing after that. Over complicated indeed! Wow.

yeah that won’t mean anything by itself, see my previous post.

**rintincop** · 11-18-2019, 04:52 PM

Rome wasn't built in a day.

**rintincop** · 11-18-2019, 04:55 PM

Chris shows it all for free in his video series on this Forum... "Things I Learned From Barry Harris" on Youtube

5432 phrases
3rds then arpeggios
chromatic approach note arpeggios
chromatic scale

**matt.guitarteacher** · 11-18-2019, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1

Lord I have to chuckle a bit. I understood the first sentence you typed and then nothing after that. Over complicated indeed! Wow.

Yeah. But it's a playing thing. It's very cool that it can be conceptualized as a kind of theory and understood in that way. , but he was saying play it first. Learn them as licks etc. . Then the theory part will make more sense.