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07-03-2020, 01:02 PM #126joelf Guest
(Wet blanket alert)
I know you meant the older Maggie Mae, not Rod Stewart's.
B/c IMO that song is rife with such bad writing, and so overbaked in arrangement and performance, I'm not sure whether to laugh or groan. (When the mandolin players come en masse at the end, it reminds me of an old Al Cohn joke: 'I did a record date with 50 mandolin players. No one in Jersey could get a haircut that day'.
Ex---one of many: this strained and ludicrous rhyme:
'I laughed at all of your jokes,
My love you didn't need to coax'...'
Besides, Stewart himself makes my toes curl---especially the GASB stuff---ugh. Give me Joni or Dylan, even in decline.
Stewart was OK in the cranked-up Jeff Beck Group back in the late '60s, when he had to scream and rasp to get over that volume. I sort of dug it then. But I was 18.
Wish he'd go away...Last edited by joelf; 07-03-2020 at 05:59 PM.
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07-03-2020 01:02 PM
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07-03-2020, 01:08 PM #127joelf Guest
Meanwhile, looking for uplifting and protest songs for an upcoming concert, I found this gem by Alicia Keys:
Always heard she was gifted. I can see why they say that...
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Other strophic (-AAA, or all A) songs include:
C C Rider, Baby Please Don't Go, House of the Rising Sun, Shady Grove, Tom Dooley, Deck The Halls, Will the Circle Be Unbroken, Freight Train, In the Pines, Man of Constant Sorrow....
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07-03-2020, 05:56 PM #129joelf Guest
And Black is the Color of My True Love's Hair; and My Babe. This is all I ask is AA with a 2nd ending...
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07-03-2020, 07:02 PM #130joelf Guest
I take back every snarky word I wrote about the Bergmans' lyrics. If they can write this...
(Legrand and Blue Eyes don't hurt either)...
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Here are my pop producer "Max Martin" hit songwriting crib notes:
Key of G (the most popular)
113 BPM (the most popular)
||: I | V | vi- | IV :|| the "Let It Be" type chords
||: C | G | A- | F :|| the most popular chord progression, or some variation of
Simple lyrics (3rd to 5th-grade level)
Most popular form:
(between 30-60 seconds to arrive at the Chorus)
Intro 4 bars
Verse 8 bars
Pre Chorus 8 bars
Chorus 16 bars
Bridge 8 bars
MINOR KEY SONGS:
||: i- iv- | bVII bIII | bVI iv- | v- i- :|| typical
||: C- F- | Bb Eb | Ab F- | G- C- :|| or a variation of
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Rick Beato made a video about the I-V-vi-IV progression ("The Four Chords That Killed Pop Music") and why it is ubiquitous.
The Beatles didn't use this much. ("Let It Be", yes, but that was it.)
Max Martin himself doesn't use that progression as much.
(According to Rick.)
But producers and record labels want them to be used because they are the hit formula.....
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08-06-2021, 09:48 PM #133joelf Guest
Since I started this thread I've undergone a transformation: learning the rules was good and necessary---but I'm a big boy now.
What I mean is: it's SO easy to fall into that rabbit hole of 'Am I breaking the rules?'---never to be heard from again as a creative spirit.
When I learned to leave Sondheim---a genius, but too anal and micro-analytical/critical for words--- to Sondheim, same goes for the other authors, I was finally able to write lyrics, muse-directed and no more choking. I've grown geometrically since that moment and would show my final drafts to anyone.
You have to leave the classroom sometime---while always learning in other ways like osmosis---and give YOURSELF a diploma, or what's the point?
It's just life, art. In life, if you're doing it right, you get comfortable in your own skin. Confident self-awareness in art can free you up---long as it doesn't lead to formula. You have to be willing to 'fail' if it comes to that. But keep everything. If you have anything to say in the 1st place there'll be SOMETHING for later development. Time will clear the slate and the muse has been waiting all along...
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I have 2 rules for myself. That doesn't have to apply to all people of course.
for notes: if it sounds lame, there is a better way. if it sounds kinda ok, still there is a better way worth searching.
for lyrics: think up a story first, then start to ponder how the words go.
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My rule is quantity over quality. I'm not going to become a good songwriter by writing one really good (really good for me), one really good song a year.
A good rule for me since I procrastinate, don't finish tunes, and tend to be pretty unproductive.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
The flip side of this is that if one is NOT working on an album (or a musical / revue / show) then there's no natural limit to what you need to be writing or how much of it you need.
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Dunno. The beauty of being amateur composer is that there is no pressure. No deadline. Sitting on 4 bars for 4 hours has been fun always.
My own argument against just whipping them out is that they stick around. Cant delete... because they have been written down.
And if 90% of it is kinda crappy - for me it would be a depressing thought. Now, whenever I revisit some of my things, I get kinda happy.
Because I was happy with most of what was written down and saved in a safe place somewhere.
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Originally Posted by emanresu
There are books devoted to Dylan's unreleased songs. ;o)
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I've had some luck that a tasty idea comes instantly. But thats only luck.
Most times it takes tossing out hundreds of of them quickly before the real one comes. Or tinkering with their nuances.
It's like fishing. I hate to save something that feels is lukewarm.
But I shut up now.
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08-23-2021, 05:02 PM #140joelf Guest
Until a very short while ago, when my song Shelter was recorded by a singer I know I wrote to write; for myself and my band. But the ultimate goal was always to have my writing---ALL of it, not the the songs but the jazz ditties; theater pieces; classical-inspired pieces---embraced by others and me getting paid. Then I'd love to be a writer-for-hire. That's NOT easy! It's like being a tailor and a different set of concerns are in play.
As far as compiling material b/c it wasn't right for a given project----SAVE EVERYTHING!! Benny Golson does, and goes through his 'dogs' (his word) regularly to see what can be salvaged or learned from. To me that's a mark of self-confidence, the knowledge that even an ostensibly 'failed' effort still has parts of value.
I've had things sitting on my piano as long as 9 years, not b/c they weren't right for a project, but---like Mr. Golson says of his work---I won't let a piece see the light of day until EVERY aspect feels right. If you were your own toughest critic (and not a hired gun w/clients to please) it won't matter what some pro pain-in-the-ass critic says, good; bad; or indifferent. YOU took it through all the paces and you and the muse are now satisfied.
As I've indicated, taking the goods to market is another animal altogether. So choose your poison...
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Originally Posted by joelf
And that is, learn some piano, and write from the piano (in addition to guitar). The piano is a different experience and can send you down different paths.
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08-23-2021, 08:36 PM #142joelf GuestOriginally Posted by fep
I've had some form of keyboard since 1988. I don't perform, but I know my way around it.
It IS an aid in composing, and it actually helps that I don't have too much 'piano' chops----that could get into the songs and in the way...
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Originally Posted by emanresu
I think "tinkering" is a good word for it.
It's why I write nearly everything down in manuscript books. Something from 10 years ago might turn out to be the bridge or an intro for a song I start tomorrow. My uncle JC had a junk yard in his front yard in Tupelo, MS. I think of my manuscript books (and now Reaper) as a junk yard---a place for all the homeless pieces that might someday just fit into something.
Part of maturing as a songwriter is realizing that coming up with sh*t is one thing and judging it is another. It's best, I think, to go with what comes NOW and worry about it's value later. (Great Monk story: he was recording and an engineer asked him if he had a title for what he just played or wanted to worry about it later. Monk said, "Worry Later." That became the title of the tune.)
It's very easy to set aside something that came to you because it's not what you were looking for now, and that's fine, but it might be just the ticket for something else later, but if you tossed it out and don't recall it, well, it's gone for good. One's present mood is a terrible judge of what might suit a different one, and our moods change a lot (-happy, sad, angry, scared, playful, nostalgic, vibrant, anxious, depressed).
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A conversation about co-writing by two guys who have many hit songs to their credit.
"Great songs are not written; they're co-written." (<<<<I'm not buying that whole hog--- Dylan and Cohen write alone--- but there have been a lot of songwriting duos: Arlen / Koehler, George and Ira Gerswhin, Rodgers & Hart, Lennon and McCartney, Jagger and Richards, Goffin and King, Elton John & Bernie Taupin, Ashford & Simpson, Bacharach and David, Page & Plant...)
https://songtown-on-songwriting.simp...d5189540b69330
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As we all know there are multiple types of collaboration related to the music and the lyrics. It is fairy rare to see multiple people write the music, with the typical collaboration being one person writing the music and another the lyrics. John and Paul could be viewed as unique in that for certain songs each would write parts of the music and parts of the lyrics (e.g. A Day in the Life).
Then there are lyricist like Johnny Mercer that were able to supply wonderful lyrics to many different composers with an excellent final product (song). Of course how much collaboration goes on in cases like this is debatable since one could say none: Mercer was supplied the music and wrote lyrics for that music. I.e. the composer didn't "adjust" the music to help make a lyric "fit" or work better, as far as I can tell.
This make me wonder how much actual collaboration other famous music\lyrics duos, like George and Ira Gerswhin, John\Taubin, etc. actual did.
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08-27-2021, 08:56 PM #146joelf GuestOriginally Posted by jameslovestal
One couldn't say the same (easy to get along with) about Richard Rodgers---who, BTW, wrote some pretty spiffy lyrics himself. Witness The Sweetest Sounds or, IMO even better b/c of the humor, Loads of Love. After Hart turned down Green are the Lilacs )which became Oklahoma!) Rodgers of course had great success with Oscar Hammerstein, Jr., from that show on.
But after Hammerstein died he sort of fell apart. There was a so-so collaboration with Stephen Sondheim on Do I Hear a Waltz (of which Sondheim said should never have been produced). Irascible beyond recall and old besides by then, he not only rejected some SS lyrics but inveighed in front of the cast 'You expect my singers to sing this s$$t?!' (Sondheim made a note of 'my' singers in his collected lyrics and reflections tome Finishing the Hat).
Harold Arlen Wrote with Ted Koehler and Yip Harburg. Alec Wilder had 2 or 3 lyricists and did his own lyrics, notably on I'll Be Around. Jimmy Van Heusen; Jule Styne----the list is long, the reasons various but business at least as much as temperament related. It's good to mix it up---makes a writer think differently.
Stiff and formulaic, echh...
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Very nice talk.
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Originally Posted by joelf
Mercer is one of my favorite lyricists. His mix of sophistication (-he wrote the lyric for "Satin Doll"--wish he had written more for Ellington!) and folksiness ("Folks around these parts get the time of day / From the Atchison, Topeka & the Santa Fe") have had a profound influence on me because some of his lines strike me as being as good as it gets.
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09-02-2021, 11:54 AM #149joelf GuestOriginally Posted by jameslovestal
This has many times led to composers seeking out 'connected' lyricists to set their songs and then help sell them. I always felt Bacharach deserved a better lyricist than David, who could be very good, as in Alfie, and other times glossy and candy-apple and sort of cashing in on certain '60s trends and affectations. Or Legrand with the Bergmans---pros, but to me too Hallmark card-like: no real bite and also over-reliant on rhyme and alliteration over substance. In fairness they DID do some terrific work (Nice and Easy) that had real edge. And in fairness to Legrand, he was tremendously successful, didn't need coattails.
But compare the lyric for Once Upon a Summertime to What Are You Doing the Rest of Your Life ('All the nickels and the dimes of your days---anything for a rhyme no matter how lame).
The biz is the biz...
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04-23-2022, 10:35 PM #150joelf Guest
Reviewing this thread I'd like to thank all the contributors for their sage input. Sorry if I was overbearing at times---but that's me (and show biz---LOL).
If you have further observations by all means post them.
'Dis must be da place'...
Replacement Speaker [newbie advice please)
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