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James Chirillo content:
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04-02-2022 08:50 AM
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O yes, an oldie but goodie. Still valid as to HOW to make the rythm section swing. A comment from my side: not many of the bigband guitarists - including myself - nowadays use a full acoustic large archtop that is being amplified by microphone.
But other than that: James is a great performer who is willing to show us the way.
What this reminds me off, is that there is also a couple of vids about "the Basie feel". Those vids point more or less in the same direction as to using a full acoustic archtop. My personal experience in the rythm section of bigbands is, that a full acoustic archtop is not loud enough if played unampified / not miked, Using a guitar with a pickup makes life much easier than an archtop that will be miked.
Achieving the best possible acoustic sound, demands for a full acoustic archtop that is going to be miked.
Living the bigband guitar life is always about making the right choices up front. What do I need, what will I take with me. Knowing where the next gig will be and what songs are to be played makes a lot, if not all the difference.
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I like to play swing rhythm in my big bands using a good well-projecting archtop (1940s Stromberg G1) with little or no amplification. A bit of reinforcement (repro DeArmond) can be helpful. But amplification is essential when a guitar solo over horn backgrounds is called for.
Originally Posted by hotpepper01
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I've been working on improving my sound with my big band.
I usually play a Comins GCS-1, which is a humbucker 335 type, more or less. The rhythm sound often strikes me as too bassy, even with the bass on the amp (DV Mark LJ) all the way down. The coil split on the neck pu sounds better, but requires a bigger amp. The LJ is marginal for this application, but I can keep up with the pianist, which strikes me as a good benchmark for volume in that setting.
Last time, I brought my Yamaha Pacifica 012 with a Lil 59 HB in the neck position. The guitar sounds thinner -- and thinner seems better for the rhythm work. Sits nicely in the mix. Freddie Green never sound very bassy to me -- the unamplified archtop doesn't. The Yamaha is a little too thin on solos, but I don't get many in that band and I can add an octave-down to thicken it.
I believe that some very fine players have brought solid bodies to big bands, including iirc, Bob Bain with the Tonight Show band and Lorne Lofsky (I heard first with Rob McConnell -- what a great band and what great guitar work). Not that I'm suggesting that Freddie should have played a Strat -- his sound was perfect.
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Ed Bickert was the regular guitarist in Rob’s big band, The Boss Brass, and they also made some excellent duo recordings. Lorne has played in big bands - very convincingly, with thumbpick and fingers - but I’ve not heard him with Rob. Solid body guitars are great for more modern comping styles but I prefer archtops for traditional quarter-note swing rhythm. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Lorne was on an album called Don't Get Around Much Anymore. Great cover photo of a horn player, alone on a frozen lake. Boss Brass. Originally Posted by pcjazz
Lorne is an example of a brilliant jazz player with a technique that I think would be immediately dismissed by most jazz guitar teachers. Wes was another.
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excellent video !
(I think all this videos from Winton Marsalys with the same "team" visiting the history of jazz music are really cool, all those great musicians playing together explaining many things are really good according to me)
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James's expression is so funny. It doesn't get more geezy and pompous.
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Yes, it's a great video about the essentials of how to Swing. First, you need good time keeping.
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Perhaps, but knows his stuff very deeply and is well-respected. Great sense of swing and can drive the big band, a smaller combo, etc. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
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That's the great thing about playing guitar. You can look pompous when ever you like! Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
James is great btw.
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Yea... fine player. But very dated... 50+ years. I work in 3 BB's and just subbed for Rick at one of his gigs with the Piestrup BB. Again old charts... and guitar is more like color, or doubling brass etc. Piano is generally comping. Still great band with incredible history...
I'm friends with most players ... they want me to turn up. LOL... and I always say... never tell a guitar player to turn up...
Learning how to swing in a rhythm section... is not that simple. Even with old school charts. If your still just feeling by the bar or two... in the moment...you need to expand your comping vocab. Both rhythmically, harmonically and melodically.
You also need to at least be able to hear, feel and imply Targets within the Form. As you develop those skills.... you'll learn how to Imply those Musical Targets... and become aware of all the, "in the Moments" with out needing to actually play everything.
Swing... is always triples and subdivisions of. I'm talking about Jazz Swing. If your still playing with the 16th thing. Stop. Use those feels for latin, rock, funk etc... I love straight swing. But it's very different from Jazz feels.
Think of charts by Kris Berg ...Univ. North Texas Like Perspective or Footprints..
or maybe Erik Morales Composer, Tpt lots of easier charts... maybe New Rumba
These are charts from BB's that play out of my Books. (I have 100's of jazz swing charts also) I love Jazz Swing.
Try and just make a Blues tune Swing.... Jazz Blues Swing. Eb maybe
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Dated? I don't know about that, swing rhythm guitar is different from comping, it's just how it is. Many seek that exact style, especially if you play for dancers and stuff... If that's dated then what is Jonathan Stout and guys like him doing... Pre-bop jazz is a thing it's popular, and it 's a different skill set. Originally Posted by Reg
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Fifty years ago is recent history in jazz. Originally Posted by Reg
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I mean, yeah… but …. Isn’t that the point? Originally Posted by Reg
That baroque cellist is a fine player, but kinda dated
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i remember watching some Stray Cats video on youtube and there was a comment like, meh, sound kinda old, like old music. And somebody replied "Are you retarded?" I remember that cracked me up. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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This is Dani Rabin from Marbin talking about gypsy jazz, but there's some general insight into the swing.
The caveat is that he's not completely correct, dancers actually do have that "weird African dance hopping in place" which they call "bounce" (or "pulse") while the weight changes from side to side are every 2 beats (1 & 3), not every beat. Maybe the bounce is a little deeper on 2 & 4, that balance changed as swing evolved from the 20's to the 40's. Please have the bass player play on every quarter note, or else you kill the energy and have to compensate with tempo, and that really annoys the dancers.
Hot Swing Sextet have a rhythm guitarist who plays like that despite the rest of the band (which includes a lead guitarist) not being in the Django style. It really helps a lot with the danceability.Last edited by shpalman; 10-30-2025 at 04:38 AM. Reason: missing n on Dani's name
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Thanks for the post - I take it you are a dancer? Originally Posted by shpalman
I haven’t watched the video but I’m not sure Marbin has studied prewar music that much. The guys to listen to are of course Jonathan Stout, Denis Chang and so on but these are my own observations as a player who has played a lot for dancers over the years and who still plays a lot of obstensibly pre war style music.
As a very simplified timeline for bass in jazz
1920s - 2 feel, quite set tuba style lines, staccato
Late 1930s - 4 feel, staccato, repeating riff bass common
1945 on - 4 feel, legato, improvised
With brass bass being common in the 20s.
After the 40s we bud off into R&B, bebop (which Barry Harris maintained was danced to) and mainstream big band swing (Sinatra, later Basie etc.) All of these being distinct from what came before.
There are obviously different kinds of pre war jazz dance that were popular in different eras. Lindybop which is by far the most popular today coincides with a period when music was moving into more of a four to bar bass style. At this point it was ‘doubled up’ bass where the original 2-feel lines had each note repeated, and with more of a staccato attack than the later walking bass of the bop era. So your comments make sense from that perspective.
(NB wider audiences must still have been dancing in more conventional ballroom styles since so many of the 78 records are labeled Foxtrot, quickstep etc… so there’s that.)
1920s jazz has more of a 2 feel in the bass but I notice that the guitar/banjo is often playing a fairly unaccented straight quarter rhythm, not accenting the 2 and 4 as we are often tempted to do so (like a bluegrass mandolin player.)
In fact the original Hot Club recordings seem to me to echo this somewhat with a relatively subtle accent on 2 and 4 and more of a straight quarter feel to the rhythm guitars - have a listen.
Modern Manouche jazz is not the same thing at all. First of all it really isn’t dance music. Secondly it has evolved since the 1930s (no really!) and often adopted a more pronounced and snappier accent on 2 and 4, presumably under the influence of modern music.
All of these conceptions swing, and depending on the situation I might play any of them - but to me they are as distinct as separate Latin feels might be to others. It’s nice when the rhythm section has listened to the same records but often what you end up with is a sort of generalised thing. That can still swing, of course.
It is quite hard to get any kind of prewar feel to work if the bass player is doing a modern legato walking thing. Which is what most bass players do tbh.
In this case, things end up feeling more like a post war second testament Basie sort of thing, which is a lovely feel and I love playing it (it’s also James Chirillo’s thing) but not the same thing at all. It’s what I hear in my head when someone says ‘medium bounce.’ Maybe it’s nice to dance to?
2 feel seems better to me stylistically to get that ‘pre war vibe’ in that case, but sounds like it sucks from a dancers perspective?
And of course, there is the massive issue of drummers. But you don’t have to worry about that in a Manouche jazz line up ….
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 10-30-2025 at 05:37 AM.
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Yes, I'm a dancer. Lindy hop and balboa mainly.
Gypsy jazz has become popular among balboa dancers, and yes that's a bit weird since it's French coffee shop music and balboa is a dance from California originally danced to big band swing, but it works.
(Often we'll use post-war recordings for dancing lindy hop, even a lot of mid-tempo rhythm and blues from the late 40's and 50's. Smaller bands and better recording technology makes the rhythm section more prominent. And yes, second testament Basie, e.g. Corner Pocket, which I like, and Splanky, which I'm a bit bored of. It makes for a cooler more groovy, slidey style of dance.)
Jonathan Stout's DC Music School clip on authentic swing music:
I've not danced to him playing live, though. Duved Dunayevsky, yes. And we had Gordon Webster over here recently but he's a piano player.
This is usually taken to be the oldest clip featuring lindy hop, from 1929, but it's not exactly what lindy hop would eventually look like. Chick Webb's orchestra, still in the hot jazz style with tuba and banjo.
Caution: contains blackface.
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By the way, I made a playlist of the whole Wynton Marsalis "Music as Metaphor" lecture so that it's easier to watch the clips in order:
Music as Metaphor - YouTube
And yes, too heavy a 2 feel doesn't feel great to dance to, or at least feels like it needs a different style of dance than the one most dancers know how to do. The band I just joined plays the Paul Severson Hal Leonard dixieland packs, but I do what I can to suggest tempos and give a rhythmic feel for dancers (we've only played for dancers once, though, since I only joined in the summer). It's already a bit inauthentic because the bass is being played on a bass clarinet, and the piano player left, so it maybe helps that I'm on guitar instead of banjo since I have more space to fill and the arrangements anyway aren't strictly 1920's faithful. (I'll try tenor banjo at some point though.)
Around here we also have Mauro L. Porro as a band leader, he once gave us dancers a talk on the differences between hot jazz and swing.
Instagram
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I imagine everyone’s having a good time in that setting haha. Balboa gigs are fun. Originally Posted by shpalman
Nice - I’ve played with Gordon a few times. Here’s me on guitar(Often we'll use post-war recordings for dancing lindy hop, even a lot of mid-tempo rhythm and blues from the late 40's and 50's. Smaller bands and better recording technology makes the rhythm section more prominent. And yes, second testament Basie, e.g. Corner Pocket, which I like, and Splanky, which I'm a bit bored of. It makes for a cooler more groovy, slidey style of dance.)
Jonathan Stout's DC Music School clip on authentic swing music:
I've not danced to him playing live, though. Duved Dunayevsky, yes. And we had Gordon Webster over here recently but he's a piano player.
Tbh this feels much more modern to me. Obviously the dancers love it. I’m doing the James Chirillo/Freddie Green one note thing by and large. I like how dancers can be really appreciative of rhythm guitar.
Duved is obviously the go to guy for recreations of how Django et al did it back in the day.
Interesting historical note.This is usually taken to be the oldest clip featuring lindy hop, from 1929, but it's not exactly what lindy hop would eventually look like. Chick Webb's orchestra, still in the hot jazz style with tuba and banjo.
Caution: contains blackface.
I’m not playing much swing music for dancers these days that said. Mostly New Orleans and Hot Jazz stuff when it’s not contemporary/modern stuff. Banjo and guitar for that. Bass sax as well as tuba, which is fun!
Things go in phases. Between 2010 and 2016ish it was only swing for me pretty much.
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I mostly go to balboa festivals these days. I'm not in this clip but I was there, in case any non-dancers are curious about what the balboa dance looks like: Originally Posted by Christian Miller
The guitarist is Yuri Biscaro, the whole evening featured specially commissioned arrangements of Artie Shaw and his Gramercy 5.
Very nice. Moonglow is Marge Simpson's favourite song. I think I recognise Steven Coombe on trumpet. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Duved had three strings break when he was playing at the Spirit de Milan.
2016-2017 is more or less when I started social dancing, and I haven't been to any festivals in the UK, so our paths probably haven't crossed. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Yes Steve Coombe! Cor bless him haven’t seen him for ages. Originally Posted by shpalman
Every once in a while I’ll get a call from him to do a gig the same day and I’m already booked. It’s how he’s always done it haha, fix the band at the last minute. And yet somehow he always seems relaxed…
Re the London dance scene I always got the impression the continental scene was way better. Which is where we played a lot of gigs. More crossover between musicians and dancers too.
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I like balboa better, the dancers seem to appreciate the faster tempos.
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I think it's because balboa is better adapted to how swing bands actually liked to play.
Beginner lindy hoppers are most comfortable around 110-130 bpm, and are taught a footwork known as the "triple step" which is basically swung eighth notes (they call it syncopation, which annoys me) and most of the figures are in open position with only a hand connect most of the time. But as I understand it, before swing music there was "sweet jazz" somewhere down around 90-100 bpm, and "hot jazz" up at 180-200 bpm if not more. Sweet jazz is too slow for those open-position moves, you need to stay close to each other and move together (lindy hoppers would probably associate the too-slow-for-lindy tempos with "blues"). Hot jazz is too fast for triple steps unless you're an athlete and it just looks like you're trying to dance to a rock and roll song which isn't what they're playing (depending on how old the song is, maybe there isn't actually a swung eighth note rhythm coming from the hi-hat, because the hi-hat hadn't been invented). Lindy hoppers might switch to "lindy charleston" with kicks rather than triple steps but they'd almost certainly do it really badly. (Even after years of lessons I doubt your average lindy hopper could keep up with Lindyhopper's Delight by Chick Webb let alone dance at that tempo for a whole evening. On the other hand, in his lessons at Swing'n'Milan, Alex McCormack said something like "this song isn't even that fast, it's only 200 bpm". One of my missions as a dance teacher is to get people to dance the actual song which is playing, so if it's a faster tempo but a relaxed feel, that means learning how to stay relaxed at that tempo. One of my missions in the band I'm in, is to try to find the right feel and tempo to make the "dixieland" songs as danceable as possible for swing.)
But if the music is around 120 bpm all night it honestly just gets a bit depressing. And if we think that 160 bpm could be a good compromise, actually it can feel like it's not comfortable for either style.
But balboa really starts to work at the faster tempos, and more recently there's awareness of the existence of "slow bal" which works when things are nice and slow and elegant/romantic.
Shirt Tail Stompers played in Milan and Catania last year but I saw Steven in August in Prague at Bal-Love.
Instagram from Milan, and I think you can just about see me dancing near the stage wearing the same green t-shirt, suspenders/braces, and boater as the other "staff".
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