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Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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11-14-2019 06:33 AM
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Outside lots of listening (like everyone else, I believe that the answers are all on the records), I'd suggest the OP work initially with simple rhythmic units and displace them in different ways until they fall naturally under the fingers and in the ear.
For instance, using a basic 12-bar blues as a framework, take a rhythmic figure of two consecutive eight notes ("on" & "off") and shift them by a quarter note in each bar:
This exercise should help develop the ability to accent on any downbeat of the bar at will. Next up, employ a similar procedure to the "Charleston" figure only this time, shift the unit by an eight note. We've now introduced the concept of starting a rhythmic phrase on an upbeat. I've inserted a couple of empty bars to give some space after the "3 & 4+" hits:
Once you feel comfortable with these, start shifting the units around. Ex. 3 represents a common Basie-style horn section figure that results when the rhythms of bars 1 & 2 in Ex. 2 are switched. Another approach might be to set the two rhythmic types alongside each other (Ex. 4 combines bars 1 & 2 of Ex. 2 and bars 1 & 3 of Ex. 1):
There are countless possibilities here before entering the world of cross-rhythms (a feel for 'six against four' and the so-called 'who parked the car' figure - a more developed displacement of the Charleston - will be an essential second stage to attaining rhythmic flexibility in your comping).
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Originally Posted by PMB
I'd probably aim for a more groove based and less mathematical approach, but this is all quality info.
Have you noticed that many of those two bar phrases line up with the clave? Those are the ones that sit right (but don't cross yer claves!).
Ex 1 is 2-3 clave
Ex 2 is 3-2 clave
Ex 3 clave bar 1-2 is 2-3 clave, bar 2-3 is (I think) 3-2 clave
Here's a video wot I did.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
This relates to the concept of 'chirality' or handedness in music - not all rhythms will sit as well together... You have this is Samba, too, although obviously the concept of clave is not used. I mean obviously it's not used in US jazz either in general.
On some of them the son clave, on others the 'Brazilian clave' with the 2 and 3+ 2 side bar is a better fit... It's not that important.
Structurally, things to look out for are some of the notes in one side that relate to one of the clave forms. For instance that figure in Ex2, first two bars we have an accent on beat 1 and 2+ in bar one, and on beat 1+ and 3 in bar two. Now three of those notes are found in the 3-2 clave.
Now obviously if the rhythm was the same it would be - the clave - but this rhythm locks into it, right? It would feel crossed the other way around. Try it.
he next two bars, lock into the opposite clave actually (sorry got that wrong) as you have the 2 accented in bar 3, and the 2+ and 4 in bar 4, so this would feel a bit odd as a groove overall in combination with the first. This might fit some melodies, but it wouldn't fit for most Parker heads. You'd be fighting the rhythm as all the Parker heads I've looked at have a very strong sense of clave.
(This is one reason I don't really like the 'mathematical displacement' approach to rhythm you often see in jazz edu. Rhythm is based on maths, yes, but it is also based on culture and traditions, many of which don't have a notational conception of rhythm. Mostly AFAIK in African Diaspora Musics (not always) there is a sense of the rhythm being one way or the other in a two bar phrase. Flipping it one phrase to the next can be an interesting effect, but it's not the default.)
The classic New Milestones/Basie/King Porter Stomp pattern that Jim Hall also seems to base his Without a Song comping, and Red Garland uses on the head of I Could Write a Book with Miles (see below) has a 2-3 feeling down to the Charleston being in the second bar, and us having the 3 in the previous bar. Obviously both bars have the one. Many of the Ketu Candomble Andrew Scott Potter posted relate to some sort of clave. For instance, Opanije relates to the 2-3 clave. Here are these patterns compared:
Probably sounds terribly complicated and intellectual, but people do this intuitively, without ever thinking about it. It's quite interesting. In Cuba, obviously, they have this theory of claves.
But then if, as Hal Galper suggests, all jazz rhythm is derived from New Orleans second line rhythms, then that certainly has a sense of clave. New Orleans has sometimes been called the northernmost Carribean city.
So on a nerd level, that's all fine, but is it worth knowing? Maybe, maybe not... It is intuitive..might help teach the difference (if the theory continues to stand up). One great practice tool is the fact that Drum Genius has lots of swing drum loops with claves that you can select, plus the Metrogenius tool which is like a clave metronome. Obviously the programmer of that app was thinking about this stuff.... I think drummers are always hipper to this stuff than us schmos... For instance the influence of cuban music on American pop...Last edited by christianm77; 11-15-2019 at 06:55 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by PMB
I do think the teaching of jazz rhythm tends towards teaching mathematical cycles and groupings. These are interesting, but I think the basic nature of swing grooves is often left unexamined. Which is maybe why contemporary jazz sounds more intellectual until you hear someone from New Orleans, or somewhere do it. I think the Clave thing is handy, and also to explore how jazz rhythms relate to other rhythms from the Americas and Africa...
Again, as with standards chord progressions, I think a 'stamp collector' mindset is best. Collect rhythms, look out for them on record, practice them on your instrument, see what rhythms work well together, maybe with a looper or DAW, have fun. And obviously play with others as much as possible. And then use them as the basis of an improvisation vocabulary. And then, if you like do clever M-Base mathsy shit...
I think we should be able to dance to jazz even if it's in 11/8...Last edited by christianm77; 11-15-2019 at 07:17 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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"Find the clave in everything."
--me (I get credit because I forgot who I stole it from)
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I think the Randy Vincent book - beginning jazz guitar or whatever it’s called, is strong on this.
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christianm77, you teach and play live a lot, right? When you accompany a soloist (including yourself when/if you sing), is it bad form to get a bit inventive with the rhythm after say the 2nd chorus? Is there a danger of making yourself so unpopular that they won't ask you anymore?
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Yea... the OP is probable gone, but.
Your a beginner. You need to actually learn genres, styles and feels. (classifications that fit into categories)
"Form" or the spacial aspects of music needs to be understood. The big picture.
Most jazz styles and feels of comping... all are either... straight or swing. (or both)
Part of rhythms or rhythmic patterns.... is the space or rests. A fun one liner... Attacks or notes, create the sound and space or rests create the Feel.
Just as that one liner is basically BS, so are most of the comments from pros, like myself.
Most musicians don't comp that well because they don't have the skills. Not that complicated. So if your really trying to become skilled at comping. You need to develop the skills. And the big skill... is being able to understand, feel and perform.... Rhythm. (the harmonic aspects of rhythm comes next)
-Understanding comes from how the rhythmic pattern works in context. (generally being able to subdivide rhythms into the smallest form and seeing how the attacks work within space to create the style and feel.)
-Feel comes after you understand the rhythmic pattern. You become able to create within that Rhythmic pattern and still keep the implied style there. You can interact and react within the Performance of the music.
-Performance... yea differemt set of skills that use all your technical skills to perform.
So there are pretty standard guides, books for developing the rhythmic skills, I've always used Bellson books for Rhythmic studies.
I like Rebecca's 101 montunos, Rebeca Mauleon-Santana.. her salsa books. Pretty simple.
Antonio Adolfo and Nelson Faria are good for Brazilian
Drummers Collective Series are fun... Kim Plainfiels or Duduka Da Fonseca, Bob Weiner..
Berklee probable has Guitar Work Books with basic comping, from their ensemble classes.They're usually very simple and basic... but provide, styles and their breakdowns with verbal labels.
Phrasing with rhythmic precision and expressive precision. You start with 1 bar, then 2, then 4, then 8, then sections of tunes, then complete Forms.
You can't make a tune sound good if you can't make one bar sound good.
Anyway, after and while your developing your rhythmic skills... you start to work on the chords, harmony.
They're separate technical skills, rhythm and harmony.
I could go on...
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After many years of thinking about other aspects, I came back to time feel as the central issue.
I'd suggest Reg's youtube videos. Everything he plays has great time feel.
In trying to improve, I've started focusing lately on players and music with repetitive patterns. Freddie Green is one, but there are many who aren't doing it as a straight 4 to the bar - not that it's so easy to do it as well as Mr. Green. I found it frustrating to learn from players who seemed to use a "stick and jab" approach -- no matter how good they sounded, I couldn't extract much that I coiuld use.
The idea is that a lot of music has an underlying pattern. I like the word "chop" which I got from a pianist who would look at a chart and say, "what's the chop?".
So, a simple answer might be, "straight 3-2 son clave". And, then, he knows how to phrase his rhythm. Another answer might be "3-2 samba" (although that's not a universal terminology and might require a quick explanation). There are multiple ways to play this, so the pianist would probably start sparse, listen to the snare drum, find the chop and then edit it down. That is, not play every note of the chop, but pick out a couple of good ones. After he's established a good feel, he can think about variations so it doesn't get boring.
Of course, this depends on the song and the rest of the band. I look to see if the audience is tapping feet and moving with the music. If you see that, you're doing okay and will probably get more work.
If you were forced to choose between great feel or great voicings ... you know the answer, but it's easy to overlook feel in the pursuit of a different kind of sophistication.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 02-08-2020 at 07:05 AM.
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02-07-2020, 07:37 PM #66joelf Guest
The OP said it: start and end with floor on the floor. Use the metronome at various tempos, starting with ones you're not as comfortable with---then play without it, and notice if the tempo was maintained.
Every day.
Everything will spur and groove from that, including soloing.
Some call this 'the circle' (as in circular motion)...
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My suggestion would be to master each tune with all the possibilities.
For instance check out voicings on all string groups etc..
And, check out pan modality possibilities.
Then for rhytms, check out big bands.
To practice all these, find a record that has no chord instruments.
I have spent a lot of time with Sonny Rollins's "A Night at the Village Vanguard" and Joe Henderson's "State of the Tenor" albums.
Good Luck
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Originally Posted by Zina
its easier to lock into a groove that an improvised rhythmic flow, so that’s probably the safest starting point. As I say the Vincent book has lots of solid basic patterns.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Edit: I'd also add this. Every now and then I've had the opportunity to play with a musician, usually a pianist, whose time was perfect and, at the same time, infectious. I don't think these are quite the same thing. The experience is that the pianist hits a couple of chords and suddenly everybody in the band can feel the time in the same way. The players who can do this, do this reliably. First time I encountered it, years ago, was with Frank Mercurio, who had been a Cal Tjader sideman. More recently, with Amilton Godoy -- not a household name here, but widely known in Brazil. And, their playing was not busy, despite having the chops to do anything they wanted to do. I don't know if it's a skill or a gift. Based on my own difficulty, I'm leaning toward gift.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 02-08-2020 at 11:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
"We must all hang together, or most assuredly, we will all hang separately."
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
you know one of the big problems with jazz is that it still sees pedagogy and learning as the exchange of information and a fundamentally individual internalisation of that learning, a very 19th century view.
In fact real musicians learn to play within a community. They might work on their own stuff to get up to the point where they can participate - so they learn tunes, voicings and language from records, but things like comping and the development of time feel often occur in a much more organic way - and often in some cases earlier in life so that the outsider it seems that members of that community learned ‘naturally’ because there is very little observable pedagogy.
reading Paul Berliner it’s clear how often people used to practice together. Also a percussionist told me that in Cuba everyone plays together all the time. The music is always social.
in a more practical sense, and away from this social world, the way most people practice is to have it set to the beat, so they can get a good sense of the locking into the beat never practice anything between the beats. So their upbeats are all over the place.
one way to address this is to set the metronome to the upbeat. The fact that most people will find this very difficult at first shows the extent to which we are unused to feeling the upbeat, but in African Diaspora music it’s basically as important as the beat. (obviously Brazilian and Jazz upbeats are not metronomic 16ths/8ths, but they are consistently placed for a given groove/tempo.) Also you got to start somewhere.)
in general, I would not go to guitarists for advice on timing. Check out what good drummers have to say. Guitarists tend to say unhelpful stuff like ‘you just got to play with records’ and ‘play with great drummers’ etc. Which is only part of the truth. It works for some, but you might find that your perception isn’t good enough to tell when you are in time with that record, or that great drummer is adjusting to your time and making it feel good because they are, great.
the metronome and educators who are able to hear this stuff (ie not all of them) are useful forms of corrective feedback. Recordings of yourself to, if you know what you are listening for.Last edited by christianm77; 02-09-2020 at 09:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by Zina
but catch myself putting in little rolls (don't use a plectrum) and simulating 'open hi-hat' things after a while, and then get a raised eyebrow from the soloist. Btw, what you said re. aiming for being the hi-hat rather than the snare is exactly what I do, and I'm happy with that; don't want to be a snare!Last edited by christianm77; 02-09-2020 at 09:25 AM.
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So why don't most guitarist... most amateur, and many pros... just don't really comp that well. Don't really even know how to create and lock rhythmic patterns into grooves. With any style.
Personally because they don't understand how to, or even know what the basic elements are.
In my last post I said, If you can't make one bar sound good... how are you going to make a tune sound good.
I really mean that...
So just skipping the harmonic thing, chords etc... You need rhythmic skills, I've said this from the beginning. I've always pushed Percussion books and studies. I studied with Alan Dawson.... I put in the time becoming aware of the basic fundamentals of Rhythm... generally termed, Rudiments. Rudiments are small rhythmic patterns that form the foundations of more extended and complex patterns. That One Bar becomes a Tune thing.
Alan Dawsons has a book... The Rudimental Ritual. Another free resource on line, Vicfirth's The 40 Essential Rudiments.
Develop skills of making 4 and 8 bar phrases groove, or at least lock in. Your creating a perception of Motion that repeats. Start with just one note (or chord), then two etc... And you need to do this with a metronome or whatever you have that creates a pulse.
Your going to see and understand Subdivision and become aware of rhythmic terms of what rhythmic elements are.
Then...separately work on Harmony, Chords and different approaches for for how to use them with different styles.
Learn... again 1, 2, and 4 bar chord patterns that imply... ONE CHORD.
Learn how to play lead lines on top of those chords patterns that also imply that ONE CHORD.
Your working on that ONE BAR thing. Eventually you'll become technically skilled enough to imply TWO CHORDS etc.. This is that trial and error approach, so it takes time.
But this works, you need to have a organized schedule, and adjust as needed.
Eventually you'll be ready to play tunes... and you'll have some skills, licks, all the BS tools you need to play JAZZ COMPING RHYTHMS.
(generally this only takes 6 months of organized practice)
There is a lot more technical material... but it's pretty useless until you have the basic technical Skills.
The above is dealing with TECHNICAL SKILLS
The other aspect is performance skills, which seems to be more of the conversation on thread, like RP and Christian, who are already great players... Anyway... I have the same approach with performance skills... I start with the basics and eventually get to performing tunes... then sets, etc... (After I have the technical skills together)
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Yes. Technical skills, in terms of that, both rhythms and voicings you could do a lot worse than Randy Vincent’s Beginners jazz guitarists book.
I’ll have to check Alan Dawson out.
Where there’s a vibrant live music scene your basic command of the instrument and the fundamentals got you onto the bandstand, where the next stage of learning .... that’s actually how I learned really....
but it’s not always so simple esp these days.
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