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Okay, so after reading about this abit, it seems like there is three main ways to create movment when comping? Please correct me if I am wrong.
1. Barry's 6th dim scale(not really his, but ye, that approach).
2. The approach mentioned here: http://in.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/Linea...%20Voicing.htm
Which I guess is using normal chords to create movement. So for example on a static I chord you could play chromatic, the V chord etc.
3. Harmonising scales
Now in my last session with my teacher he told me to practice harmonising scales. He showed an example where he used fourths of G major, three notes, and then moved them all to the closest notes in the scale. He was very focused on me NOT trying to think what chords those three notes represented, but rather think of it as just playing the scale. It's about movement and melody. Of course, like when you have the whole scale practised, you don't play all the notes, but you create music/melody.
Now I believe that is mentioned in Green's comping book:
What do you use when you comp? Also, I hope someone can help me clarify, if I am correct. I would really love to be able to start practicing this stuff, but I do not really know where to start. I think a combination of 2 and 3 is the way to go for me right now. Suggestions on books etc. to get started with this is very welcome. I want to end this boring comping style.
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12-22-2018 04:55 PM
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It's not just one thing. It's a lot of techniques which you mix and match on the fly.
The goal, to my way of thinking, is to be able to sound like Ralph Sharon behind Tony Bennett. Ralph's comping could be a mini-symphony, particularly during the turnarounds. He didn't just hit chords. Rather, he make a little chord melody that fit the situation.
If you listen to Chico Pinheiro's comping you'll hear the same sort of thing, but in a more recent style -- and with more intense rhythms than might not have made sense in Tony Bennett's band.
So, some techniques:
1. Learn to voice every four note chord with any of the four on top. Players often do this for the top 4 strings, middle 4 and lower 4, but some skipped-string voicings work too. You can grab them in ways which give you a free finger with which to put other notes on top or inside the chord. That gives you an improved chance to move from one chord to another to make a melody with the top notes.
2. Harmonized scales, absolutely. I'd suggest special attention to Melodic Minor because there is no avoid note. Pretty much, you take any group of notes within a melodic minor and they will be interchangeable with any other group of notes. That's a little obscure, but here's an example. Suppose a tune starts with 2 bars of Fmaj7 and then 2 bars of Bb7#11. For the Fmaj7 you can move around by playing different inversions of it -- adding D or G if convenient and making a little melody.
Then, when you get to the Bb7#11, think Fmelmin and pick any group of notes from that scale. You'll like some groups more than others, but they all sort of fit, especially if the bassist gives you the root.
If you then move from one chord in the harmonized Fmelmin scale to another, it will work. So, you can play, say, Fminmaj7 with an Ab on top, then move to E7+9 with a G on top, to G7susb9 with an F on top .... and now you've got a simple descending melodic line on top of your chords. And it doesn't have to be Ab G F -- you can make any melody from Fmelmin.
To get started pick some notes from Fmelmin and move them through the scale, memorizing the grips if you like them.
3. Using movement from maj to dom7 chords. Using diminished chords as passing chords.
etc etc.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 12-22-2018 at 07:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Originally Posted by znerken
The way I practiced it was picking a tune and trying to find a chord for every melody note, with voice leading as smooth as I could make it. Obviously, I didn't start with really fast melodies. And, shortly thereafter, trying to find cool sounding chord substitutions. I thought about chord, melody note, and voice leading. Sometimes, bass line if I was trying to do a solo arrangement.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
By the way, when I said harmonizing a scale, I also meant quartal harmony for example. That’s what my teacher showed me, I guess.
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Quartile harmony is very useful.
I learned this way.
Start with xx2233.
Then move that up through the major scale, using the note on the E string, G, as the root. In fact, this same voicing appears in multiple major scales, including C G D F.
Then, move it through the melodic minor scale, again using G as the root.
12 keys, no cheating.
Then, take the chords I mentioned, two bars each Fmaj7 and Bb7#11. Use any quartile voicing for Fmaj and move from one to another making a simple melodic line. Then do it for the Fminmaj scale against the Bb7#11. Keep doing this until you can use any of the voicings.
Then, consider xx223x as a nice quartile voicing with three notes. You already know it, you're just omitting the note on the high E string. This time, move the note on the D string up an octave and play only the top three strings xxx230. Now, move it up through the two scales, major and melodic minor.
12 keys, no cheating.
And, when you've got that together, go back to the Fmaj7 Bb7#11.
This is maybe 3 months of work. It changed the way I comp.
Here are a few advantages.
By voicing in 4ths the chords are more ambiguous. You can pretty much use the same grips whether the chord is Cmaj vs. G7. You keep 'em moving and don't hold one too long if you hear a clash.
Same is even more true for melodic minor. No avoid note. Everything you try works. So, when you see that Bb7#11, you think Fmelmin and instantly know you can play any one of the voicings above. Or you can think any voicing at all of Fminmaj7, Gsusb9, Abmaj7#5, Bb7#11, C7b13 Dm7b5 or Ealt. They all will work! And it won't even matter if you voice them in quartile or tertian harmony.
Next time you start a tune that has 4 bars of Gmaj7 up front, you pick your quartile voicings and move them around making countermelody. If the tune then goes to Gm7, you can do the same grips you'd use for Bbmaj7, or you can see if a different minor scale might sound better. But, you won't have to sit there playing 4 beats of Cmaj7 per bar, or two beats each of Cmaj7 C6, or even moving from one maj7 grip to another.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Bill Evans does that a lot, doesn’t he?
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Well the reason I got the exercise was to generate movement when comping. Also I wasn't totally sure how to practice the exercise, as it wasn't very clear. So I thought I should head here for some advice I think what my teacher was talking about, is harmonising a scale with quartal harmony.
So, what do you use?
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Actually, I have been practicing a load of new harmony stuff for 8 months .... It has yet to show up much in any of my actual real world comping. It will though...
Be patient.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by znerken
The Van Eps method book (the 50 page one, not the 3 volume tome) will have you harmonising scales all over the place...
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Another point that's worth thinking about early is when you actually play the chord(s), whichever chords you pick.
This is just as important, and maybe more difficulty, than working out voicing options.
It's all about the feel of the music, but it also informs how many voicings, notes and fragments you're going to play as you comp.
One basic division is whether you try to play the pulse or just outline the harmony (meaning, playing mostly as one chord gives way to the next while leaving space when a chord doesn't change). Pianists do it all the time. So, for example, in my two chord example, the pianist hits the Fmaj7, or arpeggiates it, or plays a little line with the chord tones, but, for most of the two bars of Fmaj7, the pianist is leaving space.
Then, just before the transition to the Bb7#11, the pianist suddenly gets active. The pianist wants to lead the listener, and the other musicians, into the chord change. One of the simplest methods is to slide in from a half step above. So, you could play a B7#11 right before the Bb7#11.
Now, the B7#11 is a chord within F#melmin. So, you could play F#minmaj7 and B7#11 as if it was a qujick ii V, then move right to the Bb7#11, probably played one eighth note before the bar line. Then, you might wait until the one of the next bar to play it again (or not).
I hear pianists to this sort of thing all the time. Guitarists, not so much. I prefer to play with pianists who play this way. I like the space. It leaves room the guitar and the other instruments. The pulse is heard in the bass and drumset. It can sound great in the piano or guitar but the band can sound great without it too.
So, as you find these voicings, think about transitions.
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Originally Posted by znerken
Putting a intervallic structure through a scale is a very common practice exercise. Teaches the neck really well. Also quartals sound good. I usually find three notes suffices in a band....
I rarely use the voicings you posted in a duo because they are in annoying place register wise and I wouldn't like playing over them myself.. Also a bit too ambiguous. In a band, good, but listen to the soloist.
In fact I would most often use those 4-note voicings in solos! Getting a McCoy Tyner vibe.
In a duo situation I tend to use a lot of spread triads and movement based on sliding up and down by semitones, barry harris stuff etc.
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Idea for getting those chord-scales in the fingers and glue some meaning and musicality on them
Not purely a comping exercise but something to add some spark to mundane Monday routine maybe.
Pick a simple tune. play it in harmonic intervals first, then in 3-note chords. When getting bored, change the tune
exampleCS.mp3 - Google Drive
It's quite tough, skipped a few, struggled a lot there. Both mentally and fingerly.
Some tunes lend themselves very well to be played like that, some sound real bad with some intervals or chords. Imo it's not worth practicing the bad ones "just because".
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Originally Posted by znerken
It’s Jordan Klemons stuff - triads with added notes in inversions. Sounds very cool, but have to map the neck in a whole new way....
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Originally Posted by emanresu
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Originally Posted by znerken
1.3rds
2.4ths
3.6ths
4. triads: 2nd inversion
5. 3-note 7th chords with 5th degree omitted.
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To the people who practiced the quartal voicings in regards to comping. Did you first learn them in voicings of 4 notes? Easier to make 3 from 4, right?
And also, I see a lot of people analysing what chords fit over what, but isn't the essential point that you can play all the chords you harmonise from the scale? So if there is a dorian chord for two bars, you can play all 7 chords. If there is a mixolydian chord for 1 bar, you can play all the 7 Phrygian chords?
Am I missing something here?
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Originally Posted by znerken
I use 4 note chords on the top 4 strings, but three notes on strings 4 3 and 2. I don't play the note on the A string, usually, in a stack of fourths. Too close to the bassist. Can sound muddy.
I'd suggest taking a look at Reg's comping videos on youtube.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Originally Posted by znerken
What I do like about Reg's comping is great time feel and voicings that always sound good. Since time feel is more important than anything else, arguably, I thought I'd mention him.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Anyways... back to the OP.
The more I tumble down this rabbit hole, the more I think it can all be narrowed down to two basic categories.
(1) Creating movement INSIDE of a single tonality/chord
(2) Creating movement to get from one chord to another
There is some overlap for sure... for example if we're vamping on a I chord, we can superimpose the V7 to create tension, and that means we can then employ (2) to also create movement between the I and the V7 rather than just jumping back and forth which is still techniques creating movement inside a single chord... but by utilizing techniques available from chord movement.
I think when it comes to (2) that the most helpful thing I've done is to study jazz arranging. Learning the techniques that big band arrangers use to harmonize a melody as the rhythm section moves through a progression can be extremely helpful. The basic "traditionally" accepted techniques like diminished passing and approach chords, dominant approach, chromatic approach, diatonic, etc. Learning those techniques and then practicing putting them on the guitar.
As for (1) I find the stuff that I work on that Christian was talking about to be the most useful. Which is all about being able to see and hear specific notes that function as melodic resolution points that help define the harmony, and then to fill in melodic tension notes that can be used to create movement while still defining the chord.
Like for instance, if I wanted to move around inside of an EMaj7 chord, I personally don't prefer jumping straight for movement that's purely from the diatonic scale. Because not every note inside that scale defines the EMaj7 chord as well as others. If I land on a dyad that's A and C#, that's in the scale, but it would be hard to convey this as anything other than an inverted IV chord if I'm playing in a trio and the bass player is vamping on the low E. Which is fine. But I want to have control over that. I want to know where my targets and my bullseyes are. If I want to express a movement to the IV chord, that's cool. But we're no longer defining the Emaj7... we've moved away from it. Which I think should be done intentionally. Instead I would isolate the triad the best defines the chord, and then fill in other notes around it to create melodic tension and movement while still keeping me planted inside the chord I'm trying to express. So I might end up with some ideas like... possibly with some additional diatonic or chromatic passing notes between if I want to have less skips and jumps...
Emaj7 (G# minor triad)
(0)xx16.14.16
(0)xx13.12.11
(0)xx899
(0)xx647
(0)xx424
(0)x644x
EMaj9 (B major triad)
(0)xx16.16.16
(0)xx13.12.14
(0)xx11.9.11
(0)xx877
(0)xx444
(0)x647x
EMaj13(#11,9) - (F# major triad)
(0)xx15.14.16
(0)xx13.11.14
(0)xx11.9.9
(0)xx676
(0)xx324
(0)x637x
EMaj7(#11,#9) - (D# major triad)
(0)xx15.16.16
(0)xx13.11.15
(0)xx12.9.11
(0)xx886
(0)xx344
(0)x638x
etc etc
The other work around, I think, is the quartal approach that's already been mentioned. For me though, I'm too obsessed with triads... so I tend to stick with sucking as much juice out of them as I can... though I've gotten a lot out of quartal in the past and see myself going back to it again at some point.
Crazy how many options there are from just these 12 stupid little sounds.Last edited by jordanklemons; 12-24-2018 at 05:22 PM.
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I have a slight noob question, but I wonder how you visualize the quartal voicings when you think about a scale? I tried with Dorian, and okay, there is only four different shapes on a string set, but how do you make sure you hit the right ones? Do you have some tips here?
Thanks!
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