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  1. #1

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    1. I am a 50's/60's pop player (C Am F G) trying to expand into some jazz tunes. Hooked up with a Sax player who is classically trained and performs with a local Orchestra. He sent me a tab for Girl from Ipanema in Fmaj7 and all is pretty good except for a Gb7b5 chord. The fingering I am using is on the 10th fret in what I would term something akin to a reverse F chord. With a D10, G11, B11, e12 chord. It simply doesn't sound like it belongs. The Fmaj7 into the G7 into the Gmin7 is all good - but the following Gb7b5 just seems to be off.

    Is it my ear? or is there another fingering I should be using? Thanks...
    2005 Gibson Le Grand

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Where are you playing your Fmaj7 and G7? Then we can give you a Gb7 that makes sense.

  4. #3

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    I think that's a bIIdom7 movement

    It all depends from the voicing you are coming from

    Here are some choices on the Gb7b5

    2 low E
    x
    2
    3
    1
    x

    x low E
    x
    4
    5
    5
    6

    6
    x
    4
    5
    5
    x

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeGrand View Post
    1. I am a 50's/60's pop player (C Am F G) trying to expand into some jazz tunes. Hooked up with a Sax player who is classically trained and performs with a local Orchestra. He sent me a tab for Girl from Ipanema in Fmaj7 and all is pretty good except for a Gb7b5 chord. The fingering I am using is on the 10th fret in what I would term something akin to a reverse F chord. With a D10, G11, B11, e12 chord. It simply doesn't sound like it belongs. The Fmaj7 into the G7 into the Gmin7 is all good - but the following Gb7b5 just seems to be off.

    Is it my ear? or is there another fingering I should be using? Thanks...
    Just as a check on the Gb(7b5), try this: 2 x 2 1 1 x That is the sound you want and it includes the 9.

    If the mystery fingering is really a reverse F shape, look at the D13th below - it might be the top of that?


    Here is how I play it for comparison... might give you some ideas.

    First part

    x 8 10 9 x x = Fmaj9

    x 8 9 9 x x = G6/F

    x 8 8 7 x x = Gm/F

    x 7 8 6 x x = Edim

    x 7 7 5 x x = Fmaj7/E

    x 8 8 6 x x = Gbmaj7/F

    Second part

    x 9 8 6 6 x = Gbmaj7

    7 x 7 8 9 9 = B13

    x 12 11 9 9 x = Amaj7

    10 x 10 11 12 12 = D13

    x 13 12 10 10 x = Bbmaj7

    11 x 11 12 13 13 = Eb(13)

    Turnaround

    x 12 12 12 13 x = quartal voice Am7

    x 11 x 10 12 12 = Abdimb6

    x 10 10 10 11 x = quartal voice Gm7

    x x 8 9 9 x = Gb(9) no root

    Alternate turnaround

    5 x 5 5 5 x = Am7

    4 x 3 4 5 x = Abdimb6

    3 x 3 3 3 x = Gm7

    2 x 2 1 1 x Gb(9b5)

    1 x 0 0 1 x = F69 (maybe if ending or switching to low chords for the first part)
    Last edited by pauln; 05-27-2019 at 06:06 AM.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeGrand View Post
    1. I am a 50's/60's pop player (C Am F G) trying to expand into some jazz tunes. Hooked up with a Sax player who is classically trained and performs with a local Orchestra. He sent me a tab for Girl from Ipanema in Fmaj7 and all is pretty good except for a Gb7b5 chord. The fingering I am using is on the 10th fret in what I would term something akin to a reverse F chord. With a D10, G11, B11, e12 chord. It simply doesn't sound like it belongs. The Fmaj7 into the G7 into the Gmin7 is all good - but the following Gb7b5 just seems to be off.

    Is it my ear? or is there another fingering I should be using? Thanks...
    If you're playing the usual fingerings at the bottom end of the guitar it's usually:

    FM7 - 1x221x
    G13 - 3x345x
    Gm7 - 3x333x
    Gb7b5 - 2x231x
    FM7 - 1x221x
    Gb7b5 - 2x231x

    If you're playing all the chords up the neck (not sure why) Gb7b5 is on the 9th fret and played x910911x. But you'd have to play the Gm7 as x10121011x or it'll sound odd.

    It'll all be a bit thin without a bass player. Anyway, Paul's suggestions are good for high playing.

    With a D10, G11, B11, e12 chord
    This, I'm afraid, is nonsense. Why is this sax guy (classically trained etc etc) asking you to play if you don't really do jazz?

  7. #6

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    It's a bII7 altered, as Irez87 said above.

    bII7 is a substitute for the V7 chord. Using the b2 note creates a chromatically descending bass line from the II chord to the I chord. It can be thought of as a rootless V7b5b9

    bII7b5 yields the same notes as a V7b5.

    In other words, the notes of Gb7b5 are the same as C7b5.

    Voicings for Gb7b5:
    Drop 3 from 6th string (root position). You can play the open E if you like, depending on the situation.
    Drop 2 from 5th string (root position)
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 05-27-2019 at 01:15 PM.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    ... This, I'm afraid, is nonsense. Why is this sax guy (classically trained etc etc) asking you to play if you don't really do jazz?
    Ouch!

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    I think that's a bIIdom7 movement

    It all depends from the voicing you are coming from

    Here are some choices on the Gb7b5

    2 low E
    x
    2
    3
    1
    x

    x low E
    x
    4
    5
    5
    6

    6
    x
    4
    5
    5
    x
    Your above notation of xx4556 is the same fingering I was using on the 10th fret. Yours is much better transition from the Gm7 I am using xx3333. Thank you.
    2005 Gibson Le Grand

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by M-ster View Post
    Where are you playing your Fmaj7 and G7? Then we can give you a Gb7 that makes sense.
    The Fmaj7 I can play in 2 positions. 1st position as D3G2B1e0 or a Barre on the 8th fret A8D11G9B11e8. The G7th I play is a barre on the 3rd fret, then to the Gm7 xx3333. The suggestion using xx4556 will work I believe.
    2005 Gibson Le Grand

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    This, I'm afraid, is nonsense. Why is this sax guy (classically trained etc etc) asking you to play if you don't really do jazz?
    I believe you were referencing the Chord D10G11B11e12 as a nonsense jazz chord - thus the Q on why a trained Sax player would ask me to play a jazz song when that clearly is not my wheelhouse. We both live in a 55 an older community and crossed paths one day. In our process of getting to know one another, music was the common interest although different paths. I have always enjoyed sax on my 50's and 60's songs (Rock a Around the Clock, Drifters, Sam Cooke etc). He has always enjoyed duos of Guitar/Sax. Thus I sent him a few songs and he likewise. My knowledge base of chords comes from a Mel Bay Deluxe Encyclopedia of Guitar Chords c1971. The Tab he sent along was in Fmaj7, and I simply began looking up chords that I didn't already know. The Gb7b5 was one I had not played. The book did not have a Gb7b5 but did have a Gb7 chord. I simply took the 5th note and flatted it one fret to become D10 instead of a D11.

    The suggestion to use xx4556 is the same fingering I devised - but on the 4th fret instead of the 10th. This I believe will work for me.

    It is true - I am no jazz player - however I do enjoy the idea of working on some things to help with adding some jazz style songs to this collaboration.
    2005 Gibson Le Grand

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeGrand View Post
    1. I am a 50's/60's pop player (C Am F G) trying to expand into some jazz tunes. Hooked up with a Sax player who is classically trained and performs with a local Orchestra. He sent me a tab for Girl from Ipanema in Fmaj7 and all is pretty good except for a Gb7b5 chord. The fingering I am using is on the 10th fret in what I would term something akin to a reverse F chord. With a D10, G11, B11, e12 chord. It simply doesn't sound like it belongs. The Fmaj7 into the G7 into the Gmin7 is all good - but the following Gb7b5 just seems to be off.

    Is it my ear? or is there another fingering I should be using? Thanks...
    You should play a Gb7 or C7 in that position.
    Never mind the b5.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  13. #12

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    There's nothing inherently wrong with x x 10 11 11 12.

    But, it has to be voice-led smoothly.

    If you play a Gm7 with a high F, then, when you drop the high F a half step to that high E in your G7b5, it will sound ok.

    But, if you play the Gm7 as 3x3333, I think the movement to the high E in the next chord is jarring.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeGrand View Post
    I believe you were referencing the Chord D10G11B11e12 as a nonsense jazz chord
    Well, it's not a complete nonsense chord, it's a C7b5 (it's also other things too). The point is why suddenly shoot precariously up the neck to play that?

    Are you saying this TAB he gave you says plays Gm7 at the 3rd and then Gb7b5 - disguised as a C7b5 - at the 10th? I know the C7b5 contains the same notes as a Gb7b5 but I doubt if you did.

    I'd love to see a photo of the TAB. TAB for guitar means the fingerings are clearly written out, that's what TAB is.

    Why not just play it the simple way (as in my post). Most people do and it's not difficult.

    The Tab he sent along was in Fmaj7
    Fmaj7 is a chord, not a key. The key is F major. Ipanema is in F.

    Apart from the chords, can you play a Bossa rhythm? Unless you just strum some fuzzy indeterminate latin thing it needs to be crisp and clear. Can you do that?

    Here's Jobim himself playing the song with Andy Williams. Take note of how he's playing the rhythm.

    Last edited by ragman1; 05-28-2019 at 09:45 PM.

  15. #14

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    There's another way of playing the Q chord which is C7b9. I've heard this done and it's fully acceptable and quite easy. If you don't like it substitute the Gb7b5.

    Don't say I never give you anything. Good luck.


  16. #15
    All of your Gb9 or Bbm7b5 voicings sound great on that one as well. Gb13 voicings as well. 7b5 chords usually indicate Lydian Dom reference. So the b5 is really #11. The #11 is implied by EVERYTHING ELSE in the A section anyway, even if you DON'T play it on THAT chord.

    G7 is Lydian dominant as well . So, you get two-for-one with your wood shedding on that one. You can use all of the same Dom9(#11, 13) voicings for both.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 05-29-2019 at 12:35 AM.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I'd love to see a photo of the TAB. TAB for guitar means the fingerings are clearly written out, that's what TAB is.
    Perhaps you would term this sheet music. The red notations are mine.
    Attached Images Attached Images Girl from Ipanema chord Q-1635-5x5-jpg 
    2005 Gibson Le Grand

  18. #17

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    Like ragman1 but I do the bridge a bit different. Also, I do this little intro and ending...

    (And, of course this tune should be played on a Tele...)

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  19. #18

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    It's normally played faster than that as an instrumental otherwise it drags.



    That was an interesting bridge :-)

  20. #19
    Looks to me like you're basically using straight bar chords, barred with first finger etc. mostly? Anyway, this isn't really the way most jazz guitarists approach chords, but you don't know that if no one's ever pointed it out. Check out some of the chord lessons on the "lessons" section of the site: Top 17 Easy Jazz Guitar Chords For Beginners | Chord Chart

    If you search for 7b5 voicing on the web, don't scroll past the voicings with the X's in the middle of the chord. Those are the ones you want. I imagine that's why you're playing so far up the neck?
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 05-29-2019 at 02:51 PM. Reason: J

  21. #20
    You might also search for Matt Warnock' S study guide on this tune. The lessons learned on this tune give a lot of mileage elsewhere.

  22. #21

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    This is probably overkill for the OP, but it's worth pointing out that there is a series of books of Brazilian composers which includes the composer's own chord grips. Lead sheet, lyric and the chord grids.

    The books were done by Almir Chediak. There is a 5 volume series for Bossa Nova and I think there's a separate one for Jobim.

    Because the Brazilians approach the guitar a little differently than American jazz players (more open strings), there is material which may be new to American players.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Looks to me like you're basically using straight bar chords, barred with first finger etc. mostly? Anyway, this isn't really the way most jazz guitarists approach chords, but you don't know that if no one's ever pointed it out. Check out some of the chord lessons on the "lessons" section of the site: Top 17 Easy Jazz Guitar Chords For Beginners | Chord Chart

    If you search for 7b5 voicing on the web, don't scroll past the voicings with the X's in the middle of the chord. Those are the ones you want. I imagine that's why you're playing so far up the neck?
    Your deduction is correct. I play the chords I know and how I know to play them. For chords I don't know, I look them up and try to pick fingerings that are similar to what I already do. This process does add some new finger positions, but I try to learn ones that are useable up and down the neck - like the Cmaj7 (x35453) that is also an Fmaj7 (x8109108) and can be walked down from FM7 to D#M7 to C#M7 to CM7.

    I have consciously avoided chord voicings that include muted or (x'd) strings except E/e. I prefer to have the played strings together (3, 4, 5, 6). I will take a look at the Top 17 easy jazz Chords for Beginners and see where that leads.

    Thank you.

    edit to add...the first thing I see (from the "easy chord link") as an issue with Jazz chords is the technique. I do not play fingerstyle and am a long time flat picker. So that is one item to come to term with. Again - I appreciate the insight.
    Last edited by LeGrand; 05-29-2019 at 03:45 PM.
    2005 Gibson Le Grand

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGrand View Post
    edit to add...the first thing I see (from the "easy chord link") as an issue with Jazz chords is the technique. I do not play fingerstyle and am a long time flat picker.
    The X's are muted with left hand fingers and played with a pick.

    Like.. G maj7 : 3X443X
    the fifth string is muted by the first finger of the left hand.

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    The X's are muted with left hand fingers and played with a pick.

    Like.. G maj7 : 3X443X
    the fifth string is muted by the first finger of the left hand.
    I can actually play that chord shape.

    I presume it is movable so the 5th fret would be an Amaj7 and the first fret would be an Fmaj7?
    2005 Gibson Le Grand

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    The X's are muted with left hand fingers and played with a pick.

    Like.. G maj7 : 3X443X
    the fifth string is muted by the first finger of the left hand.
    My favourite twist on that grip is to omit the fifth (the high note) and add the ninth between the seventh and the third:


    AMaj9: 5x642x


    You can even supply the 13th on top:


    AMaj13: 5x6422
    Build bridges, not walls.

  27. #26

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    Sometimes asking a question on this forum can end up feeling like taking a sip from a fire-hose! Wow this is quite the seminar on those changes, and wonderfully informative. I've played GFI for decades and I've learned some stuff reading this thread. What a place!
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  28. #27

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    It's not the chords, the chords are easy. It's the rhythm. I've yet to hear Bossa being played convincingly with a pick. And I'm still waiting for someone to point out I was playing a Samba rhythm, not a Bossa.

    Bossa is dead simple, just | 1 2 1-2 | 1 2 1-2 | with chunky variations here and there. But the catch is that playing the tune over it is awkward because the two sets of beats don't match. With tunes like Insensatez it works, the two go together, but with Ipanema they don't properly. It needs a very accustomed ear to hold it together. Like being Brazilian :-)

    The reason I demo'd the Samba beat is that it rolls along and provides a stable backing, much easier to follow. But without the right rhythmical feel I don't think it's possible to play Ipanema properly.

    It's also nicer done in Db, but F is the popular key.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    It's not the chords, the chords are easy. It's the rhythm. I've yet to hear Bossa being played convincingly with a pick. And I'm still waiting for someone to point out I was playing a Samba rhythm, not a Bossa.

    Bossa is dead simple, just | 1 2 1-2 | 1 2 1-2 | with chunky variations here and there. But the catch is that playing the tune over it is awkward because the two sets of beats don't match. With tunes like Insensatez it works, the two go together, but with Ipanema they don't properly. It needs a very accustomed ear to hold it together. Like being Brazilian :-)

    The reason I demo'd the Samba beat is that it rolls along and provides a stable backing, much easier to follow. But without the right rhythmical feel I don't think it's possible to play Ipanema properly.

    It's also nicer done in Db, but F is the popular key.
    When I hear a Brazilian play Garota de Ipanema, it always seems that the melody is fitting into the guitar comp in a very non-obvious way. Americans often play it xo xo ox oo (which isn't wrong), but what Joao Gilberto did was something far more sophisticated. I've read that even his contemporaries had difficulty nailing his style.

    Another point is that the English lyric does not follow the melody of the Portuguese lyric. Syllables are different. Portuguese melody is better IMO.

  30. #29

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    Absolutely. Very good point about the syllables. I was just playing it and I was playing 'Tall and tan and young and lovely' which is not quite the same as 'Olha que coisa mais linda mais cheia de graça'. Excellent point.

    Apparently Gilberto spent literally hours going over and over chords and variations, even while a show was on. He was a driven man.

    There's a vid somewhere that shows how he was. I think he comes on, still fiddling with some chords as he sits down. But he seemed to mellow when he was older.

    I tell you who was expert at Bossa and that was Mike McKoy, now no longer with us here. He did it all in perfect Portuguese and had the guitar down to a T. I used to go to watch him in Brighton.


  31. #30

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    I've found the Gilberto one too. You wouldn't want to get him irritated on a bad night :-)


  32. #31

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    I stole this,


  33. #32

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    Romero's terrific. In fact, that whole site is stunning. Not just Bossa stuff, also jazz. Too much good stuff to mention. It ought to be compulsory listening :-)

    UM CAFE LA EM CASA
    - YouTube



  34. #33

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    Assuming you're playing the chord that coincides with the lyric "... not at he" which would be a Gb7/b5/b9, play an open Am7 then bring your third finger up onto the Gb on the 6th string. If you're finger picking (as does Joao Gilberto) you'll be picking the 2nd string (C), the third string (open G), 4th string (E), and 6th string (Gb).

    The Getz/Gilberto version was recorded in Db so that Getz's would be playing in Eb on his tenor. If my assumption is correct regarding where you're Gb chord comes, then it sounds like you're a whole step down from there.

    An easy way to play the Gb7b5 is to barre the 2nd fret, place your third finger on 3rd string Bb, place your 2nd finger on 5th string C, and pluck strings 3-6.

    And of course,

    Second finger, 6th string Gb
    Third finger, 4th string E
    Fourth finger, 3rd string Bb
    First finger, 2nd string C
    Pluck those four strings

    Many more inversions and positions.
    Last edited by Uncle Vinnie; 06-02-2019 at 11:53 AM.