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Originally Posted by fep
I was asking if anybody else pays the rent by just teaching lessons during the day and getting gigs at night.
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02-06-2018 02:37 PM
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My dad used to say, get an education in perspective area so you can hold a regular job that pays the bills and then you can play the music on the side all you want and enjoy the life. Win-win? Absolutely not! Do not fall into this trap!
If you want to be musician, then be a musician, dedicate all of yourself to it, and pay the price sacrificing other things. Dont be a nurse or something, thats rediculous, thats whole different career. You cant hang out till 4am and then go to work at 8am, not in a long run.
Teaching music is part of being musician, but if we are talking part time teaching. Full time school teacher is not what we are talking here, because thats super demanding job in itself leave you no time or energy to be a performer.
No matter how tough it could be, to be in the game and have a shot at it you need to stay in the game. Half assed way is an illusion.
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@sunnysideup I would certainly not say I am unhappy and don’t want to give the impression I’m moaning... it’s more that I’m acutely aware of the limitations of the jazz circuit. Most players are.
In the longer term, everyone else is screwed too, not just the musos :-)
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Which is said half jokingly because I actually think we are on the cusp of golden age.... but there will be a lot of stress as society shifts in the wake of technology. As always.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Several are full time, or close, school teachers, teaching music. Elementary, middle or high school.
Several teach at local music schools in reasonably affluent communities. Some do around 30 hours a week combining after school and Saturdays.
One teaches part time at a University.
They all gig on the side, but it's hard to put together a decent living playing gigs around here. I do know a couple of guys who seem to do it, but I don't know their individual circumstances. And, even the most successful of these guys do play some gigs for almost nothing. That may have more to do with the nature of the music rather than financial desperation. Oh, I do know several guys who do union pit musician work for touring companies of Broadway shows -- they may make more of a living.
Some of these guys live very frugally. Maybe most.
For the most part, the guys making something approximating a living are truly great musicians.
The guy I know who is doing best is a world class player held in awe by everyone -- and even he is looking for alternatives to performing, for example, composing/arranging music for the sorts of things that we binge watch.
An aside. One of the Grammy nominees this year was Antonio Adolfo, who did an album of Wayne Shorter material. I wanted to buy the album, but I wanted to hear it first. I checked youtube, finding that the entire album was available. Who uploaded it? Antonio Adolfo.
I don't know for certain that Sr. Adolfo actually posted it (it could have been a scam). But there it was. With this sort of thing happening, there can't be much money in selling recordings.
Tough business.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
The few musicians I know in the SF Bay that make a living as full time musicians live extremely frugally, hustle A LOT, and generally don't seem too happy about their situation. I don't know anyone that doesn't also teach in addition to playing gigs, and come to think of it, most NYC based musicians I know, teach as well. Having a partner with a good job is also quite common.
To be fair, this is true of a lot of things, not just jazz or even music. A lot of professional boxers work day jobs, sometimes teaching boxing but sometimes complete different jobs. There's a ton of sports outside the most popular ones where elite level athletes are unable to earn a full time income from.
I think there will be all sorts of new ways over the next decade to earn a living playing music, and I also suspect that those ways won't be anything like what has been done in the past.
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Hep, I admire your purity. And I do know full time musicians who do like you. But if you are anything like the ones I know, that purity comes with a price.
I won’t put you on the spot by assuming anything about your situation, but I think it it fair to say few pro musicians can afford their own home or apartment. They have shared housing with roommates —even as full adults well into middle age. Few can support a family. Few have any form of health care. A sick child or a broken bone means bankruptcy and possible homelessness. Few have savings, have reliable transportation, or a credible plan for their old age.
Even successful musicians can see their fortune change. I have a friend who had a major record label contract as a metal hair band in the eighties. He works as a bell hop in Las Vegas now, his 50th birthday staring him in the face.
So if the OP feels the call to risk everything for music and can accept the risk, do it!!! But know what that kind of purity can cost you.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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I don't know any full time performers in the US. Some musicians would do a residency with a band in the far east and then stay there and freelance. They call pre-1987 simply 'the band days'. I found out about 4-5 years ago that they stopped hiring American bands after we were there.
I think they just got sick of us. Remarkably, they didn't venture off into other kinds of vice and just stick to gambling. Gambling is bad enough.
At this point I just want to jam once in while. I don't need to get paid. Play some blues.
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
Vegas Strong
Send us your tired, your poor, and your shitty R&B bands from California.
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
Of course in reality, the rewards might be not the same. But one thing for sure, it's never gonna go anywhere if you don't give 100%.
Yes, I don't own a house or apartment, I don't even have a car. But I don't think I'm unhappy because of that, I never care about those things. As long as I have my musical tools, clean shirts, and place to live, I'm fine. I'd be much more miserable having to wake up early every morning and go to work that I hate.
Also, I'm in my mid 40's, and I barely had a full time job in my life, and not for the lack of trying either. I think the longest run was 3 month in a warehouse in midtown fabric factory, where in the end I got into a fight and had to quit. I did catering for a long time, but it was the same hassle to get work, and it was seasonal, so might as well hassle for music.
Sometimes life sets you straight for a certain way of living, so music might as well just pick you, not the other way around. But everyone is different of course.
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Your "Half assed......" statement might not be the only elusion in your post.
I supported myself for 20 years as a full time musician but when I reached your age I went back to school, finished a couple of degrees and got a day job. Now I have few financial problems, own a house, cars, have health insurance, can travel around the world and have a lot more free time to play the music I like than I had when playing music for a living. (Besides, I don't have to show up for the gig when I'm sick and can't really give my best performance)
I did what your dad suggested and don't regret a thing.
But then again, YMMV and we all get to make our own choices.
Best of luck.
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I had to pick this up from sunnyside, I should of course, know better:
Yes teaching is great, if it’s in the vein of a master passing on experience, like Kenny, or Pat Martino, or John McLaughlin.
However, the celebrity doing a masterclass, or getting a one off lesson while great, is a fantastic thing, and I'm a big fan.
OTOH do you have the type of relationship with the player in question for them to patiently work with you on weak areas of your playing and so on?
I think this type of week in week out 'grunt' teaching is undervalued, very important, and the sort of thing I aspire to as a tutor... The ideal is to get people to the point where you can pass them down the line to the next thing, and a good teacher will suggest pathways and opportunities for their student that will benefit them. I want my students to outgrow my teaching.
Outside the very creme de la creme of the music schools, even at undergrad level, players often have massive areas they need to work on before they are really ready to go on to the next stage, whatever that is.
It's not the sort of thing you can can get from a book, a masterclass, Skype lesson with a celebrity player, or distance learning course, cool though those things are.Last edited by christianm77; 02-07-2018 at 12:26 PM.
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Things like food and a place to crash are often considered "expenses" you have to take extra work to acquire.
One thing you can do is play music in a place that feeds you. Get well known and be a familar face so the staff knows you. Then when you're not working, you can come in, live like a king on the portions that wasteful patrons leave behind. They leave a half eaten portion of spagetti and meatballs on the plate, time it so the moment they're out the door, slide into the chair, WOOF that baby down, smile and viola! Life is good!
Food taking a bite out of your budget? Bite back!
David
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I think our educational system fails young people by intentionally not teaching them about personal finance and economics.
"How you make it work" applies to everybody, from attorney to zoologist. Make a budget. Add up what it costs for food, apartment, car, gas, insurance, clothes, etc. Then figure out how much you might make at gigs & teaching- say $100 bucks a gig, $20-40 a student (whatever the rate is in your area, for your level). You might make more if you go out on the road with a band, or play weddings & such. Like others have joked, the math will probably tell you you need a girlfriend with a car and an apartment!
The vast majority of musicians I know (not just jazz musicians) DIDN'T make it work, or tried and gave up.
I've known a few, though, who've had long careers. One guitarist friend from my college days went on to get a Master's, and became a guitar professor at a midwestern state college, and just recently retired (and he's still doing gigs). A friend of mine was Harry Allen's roommate at Rutgers- Harry is a great tenor player, widely recorded and travels all the time. Another old friend is a bass player, plays all over NY/NJ and internationally, too (and has a family). Jimmy Leahey (son of the legendary Harry Leahey) is a friend of my guitar teacher- great rock guitarist, does stadium gigs with big-name bands, but still does cover-band bar gigs.
If you really want it, you'll have to pay your dues, maybe for a long time, and only you can decide if it's worth it.
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To the OP's question...No, I am not supporting myself as a musician. However, my brother has and continues to do so. How? He hasn't limited himself to only playing his main instrument, piano. Fortunately, God gave him much more talent (than me), so he gets gigs playing keys, guitar, bass, drums and vocals. He also taught himself how to engineer and produce music. Even with all of this going for him, life has been tough, especially after marriage and two kids. His now ex-wife was a talented vocalist and they both worked for a church in the music department as their 'day job'. Now he's re-married and still working as a full time musician, producer, etc.,...PLUS driving for Uber to make ends meet.
Back in the day a few of my friends did music full time...and a couple if them even 'made it big'...for a while...recording, touring and eventually being produced by Quincy Jones. Then after the bubble burst, and the record companies kicked them to the curb, they had a hell of a time earning a living. Did someone already invoke the "girl friend" support system? That worked for a while and some even got married. But music still proved to be the fickle mistress, with no benefits, and definitely no 401k.
Bottom line? Music is a very tough job if that's all you do. Even if you teach, produce, etc., it still is very hard to make a decent living for most. If you are currently a sophomore in college, be sure to take a few business and law courses to round yourself out so you know how money is made and how to keep it once you get it. Work full or part time in another industry for a while to get a feel for 'normal' life outside of music. Have a back up career that pays the bills if your music career gets short-circuited. Music is very seductive, and those with the talent to take it to the pro level, making a living at it are truly blessed...and very, very lucky.
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It must have been great to be a jazz musician back in the day, but c'mon guys times have changed.
Being a jazz musician these days is a bit like being a designer of steam trains or a Jacobean actor, no longer relevant but a fun hobby maybe.
And poverty is never fun.
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Originally Posted by BGulecki313
The question is not "are people doing it now," which is what you're asking. That's irrelevant to you because you're not doing it yet. The question is "will people be able to do it in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years." That's when you're going to be trying to do it. When a one bedroom apartment is $2000 a month and health insurance is $2000 a month without Obamacare subsidies- which is just a few years off in most of America and is a reality in parts of America already- you'll need to be able to make $60,000 a year just to get by. Can you make that gigging and teaching? Where I live, a basic "middle class" income is $65,000 a year for a single person and the median income is $10,000 below that. You can see that the math of the American Dream is getting harder. You need to think about these things as you plan your future.
The day job is actually a good thing artistically. You don't have to take any gig that comes along just for the money. And frankly I suspect that in another decade there will basically be only a fraction of the professional musicians there are now- local live music will almost all be skilled amateurs playing for free or peanuts. The joys of cutting off the payment sources for musicians and composers (Spotify, YouTube, etc., pay pennies on the dollar due to how those royalties work versus mechanical licenses. For musicians and composers to make a living, services like Spotify would have to charge the listener per day what it now charges per month and pass all that money straight through to the artists).
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Tal went back to sign painting didn't he?
Johnny Smith and his guitar shop.
Allan Holdsworth and his BREWERY!
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Originally Posted by sunnysideup
David
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Originally Posted by kris
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And ever at my back I hear Frank's cautionary tale about musicians who "wind up workin' in a gas station".
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Agreed RP, recognising where your real strengths (and interests) are is very important. I also feel that a lot of people in the entertainment business really do believe their own marketing hype.
And beyond that there really has been major social change since the heyday of jazz. Record sales are down, gigs are down, session work is down, and that trend will almost certainly continue.
The ratio of supply and demand for labour (ie musicians) is completely out of kilter: there's an over-supply of labour (musicians) with an under-demand for their services, all in a continually shrinking market. Ouch.
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If I could roll back the clock to college jazz days I would really attempt to do what Steve Vai references as the Zappa advice...always sock away to savings 10% of any income you bring in, period. Make it a non negotiable...Start this while in college and resist the classic debt path that the CC dealers on campuses are pushing and you might be able to better pursue your dream of music for years to come.
It doesn't hurt to consider both a short and long term view...I know I really wanted to play in a band and make music my living more than anything when I was college aged ...but as life carried on that lifestyle appealed less and less to me.
Yes you could say I became my parents (eek! :-) but as the years went on having a family, a home, etc. just became much more important.
Point being I guess there are MANY paths to happiness; for some that calling to make their living as a musician is just too strong to ignore and if that is your goal above all else then by all means pursue that to the hilt! Those who I do know were successful did have this drive/calling that was undeniable.
I know post college I resented my parents and others for their advice to get a back up plan and felt/blamed that somehow for me not "making it" in music....now that the years have gone on and I've seen what those actual career paths have amounted too its not as bad advice as I thought it was....
It seems to me that successful musicians coming up now days really need to focus as much or more beyond performing locally as an online presence and offering lessons, teaching and music and so on....yes its a crowded field but as this forum well shows, there is a large pool of people hungry for this info....
Best of luck!
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I had a discussion about this recently with a local pro.
His impression was that the people who are making a middle class living in this area do it with a combination of teaching and union work, mostly shows in the big downtown theaters.
The players I know who do that are uniformly very highly skilled and enjoy that type of work. Not everybody wants to play the same show multiple times a week. The way that I know them is that they play in jazz groups for very little money, I guess to have an outlet for that side of their musicianship.
The players I know who make a decent living teaching, have day jobs at schools. I know a couple of people who teach at music stores but I think it's hard to make a living that way.
And, with the exception of the union guys, who I believe can get a pension, it's very hard to build for the future.
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Originally Posted by sunnysideup
Monk's wife supported the family for a long time, maybe most of his active time playing.
Duke's band was a financial roller coaster and don't forget he was playing gigs at Ice Capades prior to his Newport resurgence.
Very few of the players at even the highest levels seemed to have very much stability, not to mention the many cats who weren't famous.
KA PAF info please
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