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Those of you who pay your rent by just gigging and teaching lessons, how do you do it? How many lessons do you teach and how many gigs do you get a week in order to get by?
Last edited by BGulecki313; 09-16-2019 at 05:05 PM.
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02-05-2018 10:25 PM
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Girlfriends.
Seriously, I don't know too many young musicians having their own one bedrooms in NYC. Maybe a bass player or two... Mostly you would have to live with roommates.
As far as how many gigs- as much as possible, and mostly events, not restaurants or clubs. Only events pay decent, at least that's New York experience. I don't know what type of jazz you play, but you better be ready and able to play good time variety, no one wants to hear nerdy bebop at parties.
I'm lucky to have 2 days a week job teaching guitar and bands in school, it covers my rent, the rest I hassle. That's it! Still beats 9-5 though... not that anybody would hire me for anything like that
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Well, you better have some chops, if you suck the girlfriend might kick you out! lol. I know I have to wait till she's outta the door to start practicing banjo, there is not much tolerance for that
Originally Posted by Stevebol
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New York is too expensive. I'd rather stay in the Detroit/Ann Arbor area. There are quite a few Jazz venues around here, and I know Jazz majors fresh out of school who have their own apartments.Seriously, I don't know too many young musicians having their own one bedrooms in NYC. Maybe a bass player or two... Mostly you would have to live with roommates.
But the people I know who find the most work are bassists and drummers and not guitarists.
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This. Originally Posted by BGulecki313
Simple truth is there's no market for jazz. A "successful" jazz record sells hundreds of copies, maybe a thousand. Even less market for jazz guitar unless you are really good, then there is a tiny market. Not enough to make a living for more than a handful.
If someone wants gigs, play bass or drums. Jazz guitarists are like sax players- on every damn corner. A dime a dozen and more supply than demand. Most of them are practically indistinguishable from each other. But a good upright bassist or jazz drummer is always in demand- everybody needs 'em. They are the foundation of jazz.
And: sorry to say, to really teach jazz (versus the notion of jazz) the teacher needs to go gig for ten years and learn how it really works, not the stuff they teach you in school. They need to find many situations where they are the least player on the bandstand and get their musical butts kicked. It takes many, many gigs to work it out even if you already know the scales and modes and chords. You need to acquire and become fluent in the language- the patois and slang- and the tradition, not just the grammar.
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For sure, stay where you are and know people and have connections. Sounds like a good place to be a jazz musician in Detroit area. Originally Posted by BGulecki313
In NYC playing in any venue you have to bring people to get paid, jazz or not jazz. You can't make a living playing only jazz venues, unless people want to come to see you and pack the joint. If you have horses for that then you don't need to ask, you'll be fine. Btw, trad jazz scene has an edge in this regard because of the dancers who follow those gigs.
There's no magic shortcuts really, and no magic advice either if you think about it...
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Jazz is a priceless treasure, but it's far from a bankable one. The people don't listen to it, and jazz lovers don't support it.
There ARE of course many jobs you may be qualified to do, I have friends who work at UPS (one of the reasons I know not to send guitars by UPS by the way) and Charles Mingus worked as postal worker, Carla Bley a cigarette girl in a night club, Denny Zeitlin was a psychiatrist, the list goes on. Be imaginative. Uber driver? Service industry? Have you worked in a music store?
As far as using the knowledge you paid for in school, do you have a tux? Wedding season will be upon us and you should be taking bookings now to work in the summer.
What does this have to do with jazz? Everything. It's called paying your dues.
DavidLast edited by TH; 02-06-2018 at 07:55 AM.
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Here in Detroit I see the good players get paid $100 - $150 a gig at clubs and restaurants. The younger guys get $75 - $100 at clubs and restaurants. Sometimes they have a good crowd, sometimes there's two people. But usually from what I've seen, even people who don't have any musical experience recognize that they're seeing good players and they're pleased. I remember I went to see my buddy and his piano trio, and they got done playing Green Dolphin Street. An older couple walked up to them and said "That was the greatest music we've ever heard. We're coming back here next week."That's a good question. Now a question for you? Why are you in jazz? It's like someone moving to India during the monsoon season and saying "Is there something that I can do so I don't get wet?".
There was a time when jazz was supportable by being good enough to be good. Not so anymore. Really. I have a friend in NY, top guitarist, played with Bowie, is on everyone's Top Dog list and he can work anywhere in Europe. But he can't work a little club for 30 people in Greenwich Village without his wife getting thrown out of the club before he gets his $75 for the night. This is not the world it was 20 years ago.
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Play jazz but get good at old swing or funk. Work with singers every chance you get. Learn to sing and play even if it's just harmonies. Play bass even if it's just electric.
Find a friend with benefits. You can go live with her after your girlfriend kicks you out of the apartment.
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$75-100 for a restaurant gig is standard here too. $150 if you're very lucky. Problem is, you can't predict the reliability of these gigs. You have it this week, next it' s gone. Originally Posted by BGulecki313
I was having pretty much steady twice a week $150 restaurant gig last year. This year I don't have them anymore, the restaurant manager said we didn't see a surplus since we hired you guys, goodbye and good luck. And yes, we had people come to us all the time and saying all the nice things how much they enjoyed it and leaving us tips. It wasn't my gig btw, I just got the calls.
I still have my steady brunch gig, and a club gig, but you never know how long it's gonna last.
Sounds better and better your Detroit... Think you have a place for one more?
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Jazz, jazz. jazz??? Really now, tell me absolutely any kind of music you might do that guarantees not having to take a day job, if you pursue a real grown up existence like supporting a wife and child. I can't think of any. You can't remain a boy your whole life. Jazz...jazz?? Bwaa-haaa!!!
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A really great question. My short abridged answer...
Are there any jazz musicians earning enough to buy a car and a house, and support a family? A very tiny minority maybe.
I floated around the music business for a while, decided I didn’t like the business or most of the people in it. So I did a degree in a completely different subject, a master’s in another completely different subject. Made a lot of money and got much more satisfaction than I got from the music business. (Still love the music though.)
Charlie Parker, when asked by Paul Desmond “Why did you get into music?” replied “There wasn’t much else for us to do”.
African American choices were very limited in those days. White people in the US and Europe have always had more choices. (For the record, I’m white and I hope I haven’t offended anyone.)
Chose wisely :-)
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There is the old truism that a Jazz Guitar player drives his $8000 guitar in his $2000 car to the $100 gig...
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Even the best players teach. If Kenny Burrell and Frank Vignola have teaching jobs, there is no shame in teaching.
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Short answer: you need a day job.
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And I contend that the good player should teach. The question remains regarding the damage that a student just out of school can cause. It's not a matter of why you should teach, but what and in a larger sense, if you should. Originally Posted by Doublea A
Just because you have credentials to fulfill the criteria of mechanics and proficiency, is that going to give a graduate the ability to make value judgements about the knowledge base when it comes to a music like jazz?
Well there's a lot you can teach besides jazz. For that, go for it.
David
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I think I know who that is... I was listening to him last night on the way back from my teaching gig. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
So here I am at university teaching bright eyed young'uns who want to be professionals. I have literally no idea what the world will be like in another 20 years, so careers advice is difficult. I don't think my path (10 years of umming and ahing after a degree in a different subject) would work now... Or even the career paths of the genuinely successful musicians I know.
The world is harsher for them. I think they are best off looking at Adam Neely and people like that, who are carving out their own career path through the web.
I do know that if I am going to be doing the same gigs I am doing in 10 years, I will feel a bit depressed, and while there are a few London gigs to tick off the list, there's not much more to do here on the playing circuit. My peers and friends are the London jazz scene right now (i.e. Ronnie's, the 606 etc) and they are largely 25-35.
It's a sobering realisation talking to someone who is a bit more of a vet that many great players are no longer 'on the scene' - the reason is simple... They can't afford to be. They have mortgages, kids and so on. They teach and play well paid continental jazz festivals etc. Or session work. There are a few warriors who still go out on the road of course...
While NYC is obviously jazz centre of the universe, it sounds similar in many ways. Once you've done Smalls, 55 bar etc... What then? Tour Europe. Get a professorship in a distant country. But you'd always miss the level of the music in NYC wouldn't you?
I'm guessing the Big Pop Tour won't materialise at my age now (I would probably hate it anyway) and I see so many talented young players coming up ready to be the new jazz scene in 5-10 years. I'm thinking education might be the future for me.
Truth of the thing is, nobody really makes a living from jazz. Show guys play shows and session guys play sessions with a bit of jazz on the side. Well known jazzers teach (sometimes).... Pure jazzers are either rich, or have a rich other half.
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I went to see the musical 42nd Street recently in London and they had a great alto sax player, Jamie Talbot, in the pit band. I haven't seen him for years and years, he used to be a regular at Ronnies.
This is probably a nice gig for him as the music for the show is very jazzy and nicely orchestrated, I don't suppose show gigs with as much jazz content come along too often.
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@TruthHertz. John McLaughlin’s “Follow Your Heart” was very influential on me, both as a piece of music, and as a philosophy. But after 5 years of following my heart, I realized I had to follow my head.
My view is that Jazz was created by African Americans earning a living (yes, I know most of the guitarists were/are white). Now it seems to be populated by white boys from privileged backgrounds whose parents have deep enough pockets to support their children's whims (yes, I know this is an overgeneralization).
@Christian. The gigs you are playing now won’t be around in 10 years’ time, so you may not have the chance to be unhappy about being on the same circuit.
Yes teaching is great, if it’s in the vein of a master passing on experience, like Kenny, or Pat Martino, or John McLaughlin. But just teaching at a school or uni wouldn’t appeal to me at all.
One of my peers has played with all the UK top jazzers, and many of the visiting legends from the states. I haven’t seen him for years and years, but I occasionally look him up online, even for him gigs are drying up, have been for a long time.
But ultimately it was the lifestyle, I absolutely loathed it. Still love the music though!
And there are so many much more interesting ways to earn a much better living.
The problem with being a hobby guitarist is that to get to a satisfactory level (all relative of course) takes almost as much time as getting to a decent pro level (not talking major artist level here).Last edited by sunnysideup; 02-06-2018 at 09:31 AM.
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To be able to play jazz is a reward and privilege. To be able to make any money at it is extra. When I got out of school, the older cats would warn me that the scene isn’t what it used to be, and I took their advice and barreled through it. And the scene now sure is not what it used to be! But don’t let that stop you, but be aware. Nowadays, you have to have way more skills than music to be successful. I made my living playing a lot more music other than jazz. Some of these gigs opened doors to other musical opportunities I would have never expected. And the girlfriend/wife who is there for you helps! Life can be a lot like jazz sometimes.
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I have never tried to live only from gigging. Reason is just a very few examples - friends who actually do that. Sometimes they're pretty rich compared to my poor teacher arse... but way too often they can be in financial trouble for months. I couldn't live like that
The good news with teaching is, if being smart and not waste money too much, 2 days job and 5 free is absolutely fine to be happy. Well, unless there's kids'n'wife..
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Further along the life...Bankruptcies in the US population are mostly due to medical expenses even when people have (some) health insurance. All of us (even if we stay single :-) will get old and will eventually need expensive health care. This makes even people with well-paying jobs scared of their future. It would be wise not to be overspecialized in one area of life and not be able to adapt to changes in circumstances. Marrying rich or other types of fully funded relationships would work too.
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Isn't teaching guitar a day job? It can be a lot of work to do well, including time put in to prepare for the lesson. There are a lot of other day jobs that take less effort and are much more financialy reliable. Then be a musician in the evenings and and on your days off.
Nurses for example can have 12 hour shifts, 4 days a week. That's an honorable job that could work well with being a musician.
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This is why I was shocked to find out that you could major in "jazz guitar" at some universities. I honestly had no idea before I joined this forum. To me that is like majoring in "impressionist landscapes". To the extent that university is preparing you for a career and is not just a place to park 18-22 years olds without having their parents shoot them, offering a degree in "jazz guitar" seems down right immoral.
I've worked as an attorney for 20 plus years, much of it in the entertainment industry. I can say that "entertainment" isn't a career. You don't choose to be an NBA forward. You are a freak of nature that, if you work REALLY hard and get REALLY lucky, you might make it. Your odds are close to the Powerball Lottery. Your rewards are similar --huge fortunes or you are out a $20, nothing in between. Music is not much more forgiving. There are some freaks of nature who, combined with hard work and lots of luck, might make a career out of paying an instrument. Most successful pop musicians just happen to be at the right place and the right time to get the glare of the industry spotlight on them. The pop musician to the left of them and the right were equally talented (or banal) and are never going to have a shot. Did you see the half time show at the Superbowl? That should be proof enough that making it in music has nothing to do with talent or hard work.
If by age 20 (I assume that is the OP's age) there isn't a buzz around your playing and gigs lining up there is probably no chance you will have paying career playing your instrument.
That said, DON'T STOP playing your instrument. It will be a source of happiness and pleasure very few people have. I don't understand how other people live without playing music. Alcohol, I suppose. And get as much out of your university as you can. It is a unique time in your life where literally hundreds of millions of dollars in capital and resources are devoted to whatever you have an interest in learning. You are never again going to have so many talented musicians paid to help you learn and improve. I would give nearly anything to be able to spend four years exploring music, history, political science, etc. Just keep in mind that when it is done, you are going to have to get a job. You would do best taking some steps preparing for that now WHILE you devote yourself to jazz guitar.
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