Functional Tonal vs Modal Harmony and Berklee greek names

[pamosmusic]

Oh dude, turns out you are a chord-scale junkie like me. You just don't like the Greek names (but then who does?).

Jinx

[rodolfoguitarra]

Unless you're saying it's unnecessary to associate scales with chords to help with the arrangement of notes per chord and the management of diatonic vs chromatic chromatic notes. You're not saying that right?

No, I´m not saying that it is unnecessary. My problem is with NAMES.

Vim7 is one thing and aeolian is other thing.
IIIm7 is one thing and phrygian is other thing.

[pamosmusic]

No, I´m not saying that it is unnecessary. My problem is with NAMES.

Vim7 is one thing and aeolian is other thing.
IIIm7 is one thing and phrygian is other thing.

Oh lord.

Well good then. Thats solved.

[Bobby Timmons]

No, I´m not saying that it is unnecessary. My problem is with NAMES.

Vim7 is one thing and aeolian is other thing.
IIIm7 is one thing and phrygian is other thing.

Yeah but the diatonic notes to the vi are aeolian and the diatonic notes to the iii are phrygian. That doesn't mean you have to call the iii phrygian.

[ragman1]

My problem is with NAMES.

So get over it. You ain't gonna change the system so get stuck in and figure them out. It's not difficult but it becomes difficult if you keep fighting it. Which you are.

[ragman1]

Dorian is the major scale a tone below. Simple: D Dorian is C major. Ab Dorian is Gb major. See, it's easy.

Play So What in all the keys. Have a beer. Quite whining.

[Reg]

No, I´m not saying that it is unnecessary. My problem is with NAMES.

Vim7 is one thing and aeolian is other thing.
IIIm7 is one thing and phrygian is other thing.

So there is this thing called vanilla...LOL

Modal Harmony is just a different door to use as a Harmonic and Melodic tool for creating musical organization, functional or harmonic functional movement.

It's a different "Reference" to create "Relationships" with and different organization to "Develop" those relationships.

It helps learn how to hear and understand how there can be more than ONE level of musical organization going on at the same time.

Sometimes it helps to arrange melodies with a 5 part sax section and listen to different results.

And it's not like there is only one result or set of guidelines. Generally just like maj/min functional organization...there are options.

Personally, I like the names. They help when performing or playing in a jazz style. I work with lots of rhythm sections... when making quick head arrangements and even working with big bands....Simple Modal terms make it easy to imply a style and Harmonic feels for solos or even just a different approach when playing tunes.

Think like taking a tune in 4/4 and playing it in 3/4 etc... you need to make changes LOL

[rodolfoguitarra]

Oh dude, turns out you are a chord-scale junkie like me.

I am in the process of rehabilitation right now

[Christian Miller]

It’s one of two or three standard issue harmony textbooks in the states.

Analyze chorales.

Chromatic mediants.

etc.

I have no beef with chromatic mediants

Roman Numerals for chorales is just … why? Why? Why do you make students do this?


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[rodolfoguitarra]

Im going to take Christian’s figured bass explanations and formulate it into a question:

If figured bass and species counterpoint and voiceleading had been figured out long ago when theorists invented Roman numeral analysis like we learn in Kostka/Payne, then what exactly was the point of that change? Why is it special? What does it give us that the old system didn’t?

Why is this change any more inherently complete than other ways of looking at harmony that came later?

That is a good point, but in this case with the Roman numeral analysis it is easier to identify which degree the chord belongs to and facilitates the transposition. I understand that as an improvement.

[rodolfoguitarra]

Its not clear to me how this process is different than all the things you’re saying are wrong.

You just don’t like the Greek mode names?

Today I understand it perfectly, but I would like someone to have told me clearly that IIIm7 of the major is not really phrygian. I saw this mistake with lots of people from years ago until today.

[rodolfoguitarra]

Dorian is the major scale a tone below. Simple: D Dorian is C major. Ab Dorian is Gb major. See, it's easy.

I honestly hate thinking like that.

[Christian Miller]

Im going to take Christian’s figured bass explanations and formulate it into a question:

If figured bass and species counterpoint and voiceleading had been figured out long ago when theorists invented Roman numeral analysis like we learn in Kostka/Payne, then what exactly was the point of that change? Why is it special? What does it give us that the old system didn’t?

Why is this change any more inherently complete than other ways of looking at harmony that came later?

Possibly, it filled a social need in liberal arts education.

OK, so this is like one view of it, so I don’t want to come across like I’m just repeating it mindlessly, but according to Robert Gjerdingen the main thing it allowed is for students at universities to have something they could pass. It takes like a decade or so to master trad counterpoint,going to an old conservatoire as a child, like Debussy, sitting on hard benches and being an apprentice essentially. University students (upper middle class and higher aren’t up for that. So they invented a syllabus they could teach.

It’s very comparable to jazz actually. You can’t learn jazz at college. So it’s very comparable to CST

If you look at say Tchaikovsky and Hindemith’s harmony books they mention roots and functions in H’s case, but it’s all figured bass when it gets down to it.

Schoenberg didn’t believe in figured bass, but he was Schoenberg, and if it’s one thing that’s certain, Schoenberg is gonna Schoenberg.


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[rodolfoguitarra]

Mark Levine Jazz Theory page 34.

Modes of the major scale harmony

Since the modes are much older than the major scale harmony, what sense does it make to say that they belong to it? This is what generates misunderstanding. Another thing: WTH would use a minor b6 chord as the VI of a major key song? I don't remember any example right now, if you have one please tell me.

[ragman1]

I honestly hate thinking like that.

Well, as you would say, you've nailed it.

Look, personally I loathe that system too so I know about it. Someone says Ab Lydian and you've got to work out, tediously, which major scale's fourth note is Ab. It's awful.

But I'm not going to let it ruin my life, know what I mean? In fact, I can't even remember the last time I had to do it. In any case, do it a few times and you'll remember it anyway. Like anything else that repeats.

[ragman1]

I would like someone to have told me clearly that IIIm7 of the major is not really phrygian.

That's easy enough, a chord is not a mode.

[wolflen]

just to make this clear..

[pamosmusic]

That's easy enough, a chord is not a mode.

You know this is probably the most important point. A mode is just a mode. III7sus(b9) isn’t “Phrygian” either.

Thats the utility of quartal voicings and intervallic structures in modal playing, I suppose. The ability to paint a whole mode sound without establishing any particular tertian harmony in the process.

[pawlowski6132]

If it sounds bad, it is bad. Otherwise it's not.

Here here. Who cares. Sounds like a lot of bullshit for no reason.

Just go play.

[rpjazzguitar]

Even if you are playing a strictly diatonic tune (of which there aren't very many) wouldn't you employ the parallel view at times? So Suppose a tune is strictly diatonic and you're soloing using only the scale of the key (nothing chromatic), every note you play over every chord is then vertically gonna be a chord tone, an extension or a suspension. All good and wonderful. But even then, wouldn't you benefit from practicing with some awareness of these vertical relationships? Wouldn't practicing this way help you organize your ideas and train your ears in a more systematic way rather than throwing notes and see what comes out? Wouldn't it help you decompartmentalize chord voicings and linear ideas?

I'll answer for how I think about it with the caveat that my playing isn't harmonically sophisticated.

I don't think about any of that when playing a tune. I think about melody and clam-avoidance.

Everything you do trains your ears. I'd just as soon do it with tunes.

[Bobby Timmons]

Here here. Who cares. Sounds like a lot of bullshit for no reason.

Just go play.

We need 6 more pages of rodolfo telling us the iii isn't phrygian therefor something.

[Tal_175]

I don't think about any of that when playing a tune. I think about melody and clam-avoidance.

If I am understanding this correctly, you don't think about the chords when practicing or performing. You work on internalizing the form and the melody of the tune then you work on coming up with ideas that sound good. Is that right?

[Christian Miller]

No, I´m not saying that it is unnecessary. My problem is with NAMES.

Vim7 is one thing and aeolian is other thing.
IIIm7 is one thing and phrygian is other thing.

I have a video on that very subject

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[rodolfoguitarra]

We need 6 more pages of rodolfo telling us the iii isn't phrygian therefor something.

I know that you guys knows this, but I mentioned Mark Levine because someone asked me who said that III is Phrygian.

[Bobby Timmons]

The iii (not capital letters) is phrygian. You don't have to call it that, but they're associated because they come from the same foundation, the harmonized major scale. Chords are built in 3rds and the modes are built in 2nds..