Functional Tonal vs Modal Harmony and Berklee greek names

[Mick-7]

Reading this thread is like watching a horror movie.

Oscar Wilde wrote a macabre story named The Picture of Dorian Grey. If I had to name this thread, I'd call it the The Picture of Phrygian Grey. Like Dorian's picture, it should be kept in an attic, so as not to scare new forum members to death.

[rodolfoguitarra]

Chord scales can present too much information, or information that cannot be readily processed, controlled, and used musically by the novice improviser. It is much easier to understand chord-scale theory than it is to apply it with musical results in an improvised solo. Improvising on chords with chord scales means that a soloist can play melody notes that he or she does not recognize or cannot identify and control by ear. This can result in wandering, shapeless, directionless, or mechanical-sounding melody lines. Often the lines are played in eighth notes to the exclusion of all other rhythm values, producing undesirable melodic and rhythmic content. Such improvised melodies often tend to outline tonic quality on nontonic functioning chords and vice versa.

Hal Crook, great educator!

[Christian Miller]

Copy/pasted from the Berklee website? I think I read it there once..

I’ll say this for Berklee, I like that that’s on there. It also produced John Mayer, so I’m not certain I’m ready to forgive and forget.

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[Bobby Timmons]

Chord scales can present too much information, or information that cannot be readily processed, controlled, and used musically by the novice improviser. It is much easier to understand chord-scale theory than it is to apply it with musical results in an improvised solo. Improvising on chords with chord scales means that a soloist can play melody notes that he or she does not recognize or cannot identify and control by ear. This can result in wandering, shapeless, directionless, or mechanical-sounding melody lines. Often the lines are played in eighth notes to the exclusion of all other rhythm values, producing undesirable melodic and rhythmic content. Such improvised melodies often tend to outline tonic quality on nontonic functioning chords and vice versa.

Hal Crook, great educator!

That's some of the most ignorant editorial I've ever read lol. If you can't be musical with the raw materials, it's not their fault, it's your fault lol.. or your teacher's fault. Spoken like someone who can't hear and has never analyzed the greats' playing. Yes, you want to be melodic and musical and graceful at times, and you can't do that if you only try to run every single chord scale, but part of playing is being able to manipulate the raw material into music. Listen to Charlie Parker, Jimmy Smith, McCoy Tyner, Joe Pass, they run scales like a mf. Every note doesn't have to be heard out to be valid, the greats use some fast rhythms and these are thought up broadly usually using scales and what pattern or idea they want to play. That editorial is so ignorant!

[pamosmusic]

That's some of the most ignorant editorial I've ever read lol. If you can't be musical with the raw materials, it's not their fault, it's your fault lol. Spoken like someone who can't hear and has never analyzed the greats' playing. Yes, you want to be melodic and musical and graceful at times, and you can't do that if you only try to run every single chord scale, but part of playing is being able to manipulate the raw material into music. Listen to Charlie Parker, Jimmy Smith, McCoy Tyner, Joe Pass, they run scales like a mf. Every note doesn't have to be heard out to be valid, the greats use some fast rhythms and these are thought up broadly usually using scales and what pattern or idea they want to play. That editorial is so ignorant!

If I’m to understand that that was a Hal Crook quote … then let it be know that Hal Crook is a boss.

[Bobby Timmons]

He may be, but that excerpt is wrong.

[rodolfoguitarra]

Copy/pasted from the Berklee website? I think I read it there once.

Yes, it is in his book too, Read aim improvise, great one

[Christian Miller]

Yes, it is in his book too, Read aim improvise, great one

I shou do check that out at some point, but that’s an expensive book.

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[pamosmusic]

I shou do check that out at some point, but that’s an expensive book.

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I used to have Beyond Time and Changes which was super cool

[rodolfoguitarra]

He may be, but that excerpt is wrong.

Completely disagree. He basically talks in his article that it is easier for a student to get musical results from chord tone as compared to chord scales.
Chord-Tone vs. Chord-Scale Soloing | Berklee

[Tal_175]

Completely disagree. He basically talks in his article that it is easier for a student to get musical results from chord tone as compared to chord scales. https: //www.berklee.edu/berklee-today/summer-2000/Chord-Tone

He is basically saying that if a student cannot play through the changes to a tune using only or mostly chord tones, they are not ready to use chord scales. That's a pretty commonsensical view. He is really talking about people who are very early in their jazz journey.

[Mick-7]

Yes, in the context of the entire article, the paragraph quoted has different implications

"However, for beginner and intermediate-level players, the chord-scale approach has a potential downside. Many students begin studying chord scales early in their musical education and attempt to apply the knowledge acquired immediately on their instruments. Unfortunately, this often happens too soon in the student's development as an improviser - before he or she has learned how to shape an appealing improvised melody by ear on a chord or chord progression using only, or mainly, chord tones."

In other words, outlining the chord tones will help one hear and respond intelligently (melodically) to the changes. Well, duh!

"It is relevant to point out here that the pioneers of jazz improvisation relied on their listening/hearing skills and their ability to accurately outline basic chord sound to guide their improvising and to create inspired melodies. They did not rely on the mechanics of chord scales."

This is a false dichotomy, they "relied" on both, chords are built from scales and learning and playing scales helps one to flow freely from one tonal center to another and master the mechanics of the instrument. However, I don't even know what he means by "relying on the mechanics of chord scales" for improvisation.

"Melodic intervals wider than a second or a third are less common if not rare in elementary-level improvised solos using the chord-scale approach."

Huh? I don't know anyone who advises only practicing scales in a linear manner, that would be unproductive. It's recommended that they be practiced in various intervals - which would include the chord tones within the scale.

[rpjazzguitar]

[QUOTE=rodolfoguitarra;1325130]Chord scales can present too much information, or information that cannot be readily processed, controlled, and used musically by the novice improviser. It is much easier to understand chord-scale theory than it is to apply it with musical results in an improvised solo. Improvising on chords with chord scales means that a soloist can play melody notes that he or she does not recognize or cannot identify and control by ear. This can result in wandering, shapeless, directionless, or mechanical-sounding melody lines. Often the lines are played in eighth notes to the exclusion of all other rhythm values, producing undesirable melodic and rhythmic content. Such improvised melodies often tend to outline tonic quality on nontonic functioning chords and vice versa.

Hal Crook, great educator![/QUOTE

This is like an excellent how-to for playing bad solos.

More seriously, I think it identifies a (common, I think) potential downside that's worthy of consideration.

[Christian Miller]

This is a false dichotomy, they "relied" on both, chords are built from scales and learning and playing scales helps one to flow freely from one tonal center to another and master the mechanics of the instrument. However, I don't even know what he means by "relying on the mechanics of chord scales" for improvisation.

There's a difference between scales and chord scales.

[Christian Miller]

Transcribe any solo by the old masters and it's striking how many of the note choices are completely humdrum. Often triadic harmonies decorated with passing tones and basic scales.

If you can't make chord tones sound hip, the problem is not going to be solved by using more notes. (Actually the better I get, the more I find I can work with simple note choices.)

It comes down to rhythm, and playing phrases.

So I kind think the focus on chord tones is kind of putting the cart before the horse. You can't make that stuff sound good unless you can play rhythmic phrases. And that brings us to the classic one note exercise which I think might be a Hal Crook thing?) How long can you play interesting stuff on one note. Most beginning improvisers seem to struggle to do it at all.

If you can do that, the problem is simplified. But many can't, and that's where he have a deeper problem that theory books don't tend to address.

(OTOH guitarists starting out a jazz tend to be quite bad at knowing where the chord tones are.)

[ragman1]

There's a difference between scales and chord scales.

At last. Exactly.

When you have a modal progression, like So What or any other, you've still got to use the right notes, i.e. scales, arps, etc. But someone's going to shout CST!

Well, good luck to them, I say.

And I like Hal Crook's utterances, they're accurate. But of course he's talking about serious beginners.

[pawlowski6132]

Completely disagree. He basically talks in his article that it is easier for a student to get musical results from chord tone as compared to chord scales. Chord-Tone vs. Chord-Scale Soloing | Berklee

That's stupid. What if the cords to the song include a cord scale then what do you do turn the page and ask for another song?What if the song has a progression that's more difficult than a Ford scale if you're just using chord tones you should be able to play four toes to any progression including a cord scale

[pawlowski6132]

And what are the right notes?

You can't be serious.

At last. Exactly.

When you have a modal progression, like So What or any other, you've still got to use the right notes, i.e. scales, arps, etc. But someone's going to shout CST!

Well, good luck to them, I say.

And I like Hal Crook's utterances, they're accurate. But of course he's talking about serious beginners.

[mr. beaumont]

CST has it's place. I'm learning a song now that has three bars simply labeled "Lydian #5"

[rpjazzguitar]

If there's a tonal center and there's a chord with a non-diatonic note ... and you use that non-diatonic note while otherwise maintaining the tonal center, what's that? Chord tones or scale?

Take All of Me. In C. Second chord is E7, so you play a G#, say instead of a G.

Just a chord tone or is it A harmonic minor? I mean, does it have to be one or the other?

[Mick-7]

There's a difference between scales and chord scales.

What is the difference? Crook did not define his terms in the article and one can easily become confused by his seemingly contradictory statements.

And how does one (in his words) "rely on the mechanics of chord scales" to make music? Sounds like gibberish to me.

[Mick-7]

If there's a tonal center and there's a chord with a non-diatonic note ... and you use that non-diatonic note while otherwise maintaining the tonal center, what's that? Chord tones or scale?

Take All of Me. In C. Second chord is E7, so you play a G#, say instead of a G.

Just a chord tone or is it A harmonic minor? I mean, does it have to be one or the other?

Well, the tonal center changes at that point but coming from the tonic chord I would tend to think of A melodic minor - but apparently I don't know what a "chord scale" is. Does it include all the diatonic extensions of the dominant chord? - e.g., E13 = E-G#-B-D-F#-A-C#. If so, it's just an A major scale.

[Mick-7]

CST has it's place. I'm learning a song now that has three bars simply labeled "Lydian #5"

Same as Melodic Minor....

[Bobby Timmons]

And how does one (in his words) "rely on the mechanics of chord scales" to make music? Sounds like gibberish to me.

Well I understand what he means, just trying to run the theory and not being musical. But that's bad teaching if you don't know simple devices to make musical ideas from the raw material such as scales.

Completely disagree. He basically talks in his article that it is easier for a student to get musical results from chord tone as compared to chord scales.
Chord-Tone vs. Chord-Scale Soloing | Berklee

Well arps are probably the best starting point, but all the material should be utilized. Again that's really poor teaching if he thinks it's the scales fault that people can't be musical. It's really simple to create musical devices from the raw material. Any good teacher should understand this.

[Christian Miller]

What is the difference? Crook did not define his terms in the article and one can easily become confused by his seemingly contradictory statements.

So obviously chord scales identify colouristic harmonic possibilities that exist within scales and seek to unify scales and chords into one understanding.

In this way a given scale, excepting avoid notes, can be used to create intervallic clusters, extended voicings, triad superpositions etc - that is things that aren’t scales, but are chordal. Hence chord-scale, right? Similarly chords can be turned into scales. You can do what you like with them.

(In a way I think it’s a misnomer and we should call them ‘colour pitch sets’ or something.)

CST in its modern form is as far as I can tell a product of the 60s, with roots going back to earlier concepts.

Scales on the other hand basically go and up and down and have been at it for thousands of years. In common practice and early modern western harmony they can be thought of as the connecting tissue between chord tones and this is how they are often used in jazz too. Think of Bach for instance. Bach didn’t use a chord scale concept but he used scales all the time.

A jazz musician like bird goes between using chord tones and scales in that traditional Bachian way to exploring what we may call ‘chord scales’ (though afaik no one had a CST concept in 1940s/50 it was more something they were hearing - maybe.)

And how does one (in his words) "rely on the mechanics of chord scales" to make music? Sounds like gibberish to me.

Really? I understood what he meant.

I assume he meant plug and play the relevant chord scale and play the scale over the chord mechanically and without real audiation. That would lead to the kind of result he’s describing. It’s a poor way to begin improvising jazz (for most students at least) for a number of reasons.

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