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Originally Posted by J.C.
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03-02-2024 02:31 PM
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i found this thread to be illuminating
and informative
and quite funny with it ….
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JC -
I know you think it's all over but...
(Christian) If you skip out the 5th the m6 and o7 chord has the same notes in - 1 b3 and 6.
So I have to say it again: go by the context. The Analyzer doesn't know the context, it only has set answers for set fingerings.
Like the word 'bow'. Is that a ribbon on a gift, a thing that fires arrows, or a thing to play the violin with?
You have to see or hear the word in a sentence to know. But don't listen to me :-)
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Miller and Rag are having a dual-this happens very often-it keeps both happy and healthy-
Now to your theory question,
If we take a "berk" and add a flat fifth to it..that is a diminished fifth..it lessons the "berkness"
but if we add a major 6th to the berk..well..it may be cause to be reviewed by DIRK..who in noway allows berkness in ANY form
and in NO way is related to BERK!
To continue..now if you play the minor 6 which contains a major 6..and put it in front of a mirror..
you will then understand...
WHY THE SKY IS BLUE !!
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by dconeill
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It’s one of those terms that is untranslatable really. There is no American term which correctly reflects the sense of ‘berk.’ The dictionary definitions don’t reflect the tone of mild, non-hostile dismissal implicit in the term.
For example ‘sorry to be late, I was a bit of a berk and got the wrong train on the way in and ended up in Uxbridge before I realised.’
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 03-02-2024 at 06:04 PM.
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JC -
If you're still there, or happen to pop in, there's actually an underlying problem here. Which is, according to your first post, that you're new to jazz chords and are studying shell voicings at the moment.
Shells are only 3-note chords and, as such, they may look easier than learning all those bigger chords. But that's a trap. It's also an issue that's been discussed on the forum before.
I would very seriously suggest you learn the full chords first before you do shell voicings. That's because the shells can be deduced from the full chords. At the moment it looks like you're trying to do it the other way round and that's why we're here.
Here's a simple example. Say you had the chords Am6 - Abo.
The full chords look like this on guitar:
Attachment 109311Attachment 109312
If you know these chords then you'll see that the simple 3-note version can be used for both chords, m6 and dim. That's 5x45xx, then just move it down a fret to 4x34xx. It'll sound okay.
But imagine trying to decipher that without knowing where that shape comes from. So I'm saying don't start with shell voicings because they look simpler, learn the proper stuff first. If you don't mind my saying so.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by wolflen
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by ragman1
I might try to incorporate a little of both into my chord studies. I hate to stop working on the shells all together, because people that don't know any better, actually think I can play a few jazz tunes.
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Regarding "college bullshit":
Yeah, f--- those guys who went to medical school! I'd much rather have the self-taught doctor cut me open.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Originally Posted by starjasmine
I do appreciate your reply...thanks
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Originally Posted by J.C.
There’s so much to learn. Take your time, and enjoy it as much as you can. Forum related, don’t be afraid to let some advice go over your head, and check to see what people upload to see if you even want their advice.
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I think also to address Ragman’s concern, I don’t think you need the big chords first. But you definitely do need to know what notes are in those chord so that you can interpret what’s going on. Even though you’re not playing them all. The shell voicings are just so good to start with.
Looking at someone like Peter Bernstein, or even Jim Hall when he’s playing duo … a pretty huge percentage of what they’re playing is probably on this sheet.
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Thanks
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Originally Posted by J.C.
I might try to incorporate a little of both into my chord studies. I hate to stop working on the shells all together, because people that don't know any better, actually think I can play a few jazz tunes.
Ah, you have fans already :-)
Well, in that case only use shells that are the ones that sub for the chord you want. Don't worry if they can be used for chords with different names, just play what you know and know what you play. I'll tell you why, because there a hundred combinations and ways of using 3-note chords, hundreds. There are all the inversions, and the inversions of them, and so it goes on.
It can get pretty tricky if you go that far. Personally, I've never bothered that much. I just use the obvious root voicing usually and occasionally alter them to achieve an effect, and that's about it. That's probably all most players need anyway. A lot of players reduce the shells by dropping the root so they're just playing 2-note chords. In a band the bass or the piano can put in the root note sound.
If you want a couple of hot tips... Don't forget that shells don't have the 5th in them, only the 3rd and 7th. So a Dm7b5, for example, is just a Dm shape. If you're playing a minor 2-5-1 like Dm7b5 - G7#5b9 - Cm9 you still only play Dm - G7 - Cm7 shape-wise. But you see the confusion that can create.
Which is why they can be dangerous. Just by changing one note you can produce the right sound for what you want but it might be the shape for a completely different chord. And if you played that chord as the full chord it wouldn't work, it would sound wrong.
Sorry, I don't mean to write a lecture! Just keep it all very simple and clear, try it on a tune or two and you'll begin to understand it. Eventually :-)
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by J.C.
If my answer confused you, you might want to step back a bit and learn some basic harmony. Jazz is advanced harmony. If you don't know the basics, advanced stuff is going to be monumentally difficult.
My answer assumed that you know some of these basics. That's why I was giving examples based on how chords are spelled.
Knowledge of harmony will show you that music is not a bunch of arcane rules to memorize but a system that always works. You will never forget "how" if you know "why."
That's not to say you can't play jazz while you are learning harmony. You can. Play with it, listen to it, have fun with it. But learning something about what's called "diatonic harmony" will give you a framework into which you can fit the rest. You will appreciate even more the beautiful and clever ways that jazz breaks the rules ;-)
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Shell voicings were literally the first thing I was taught in jazz guitar and it never did me any harm
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Originally Posted by starjasmine
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Originally Posted by ragman1
For what it’s worth … my first guitar teacher was excellent but was not a jazz guy *at all*. He brought in photocopies from Mickey Baker for a few weeks, so I got those chord shapes because that’s the book he had. I got nothing from at all from that book (yes, I know people like it, and that’s fine). After a while, he settled on teaching me technique while I went in on the jazz stuff on my own. Which was great.
Point being, what I learned first has essentially nothing to do with what should be taught first.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Substituting those for learning proper chords and harmony I think would probably not be very responsible teaching, in my view. But each to their own, I suppose. Sooner or later they'll have to learn full chords and how to use them anyway.Last edited by ragman1; 03-03-2024 at 12:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Shell voicings are actually theory-based because they involve stripping a chord down to its 3 essential components for comping purposes, a la Freddie King, probably involving multiple chords per bar at speed and producing great voice-leading.
Substituting those for learning proper chords and harmony I think would probably not be very responsible teaching, in my view. But each to their own, I suppose. Sooner or later they'll have to learn full chords and how to use them anyway.
Anyway. Around and around we go. Do your thing.
Transcriber wanted
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