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Some of you guys are making out that BH actually invented this stuff.
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11-20-2023 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
It’s pretty easy to hear these devices - particularly descending - in loads of the post-Parker generation of horn players. Hank Mobley and Dexter Gordon come to mind.
I just think BHs formulation of it is super super practical.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
All these 'rules' about what goes where are laid out, right? So you want to play a tune and you've got to improvise. What do you do, work it out on the fly? Compute it as you go along? You'd need a super-brain to do that.
So do you work out all these licks in all the keys and then regurgitate the licks? To me, that's death to spontaneous creative improvisation. I refuse to play music that way.
I don't know how BH or any of the fluent bebop players worked out their lines. Maybe the answer is practice till you drop and it all becomes second nature. Probably that's the answer, plus talent, of course.
I used to do bluegrass and I could rattle my way round most any tune at about 220, no prob. But they're very simple progressions in G, C, D, or Em, and so on. With a capo. But this jazz stuff is not like that, it's highly complex. I couldn't do it.
In any case, I'm bolshy, I don't like being told how to play my stuff, takes the pleasure out of it :-)
So how do you do it? And CAN you do it? If you don't mind my asking. I mean, anyone can quote BH or someone else. Not quite the same as playing it yourself spontaneously, right?
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So do you work out all these licks in all the keys and then regurgitate the licks? To me, that's death to spontaneous creative improvisation. I refuse to play music that way.
I don't know how BH or any of the fluent bebop players worked out their lines. Maybe the answer is practice till you drop and it all becomes second nature. Probably that's the answer, plus talent, of course.
There's that apocryphal Charlie Parker quote about practicing hard and then "forget it all and just blow."
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
There's that apocryphal Charlie Parker quote about practicing hard and then "forget it all and just blow."
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You mean as you improvise in real time? Or in your bedroom :-)
I understand that. In fact, I do it. Only not with speedy bebop lines over complex progressions!
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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The hiccups are my favourite bits
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Originally Posted by rintincop
(Very interesting conversation anyway.)Last edited by Bop Head; 11-21-2023 at 08:17 AM.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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For anyone who is interested in this, I've updated the 1st post to include the generic sequence formula for both the ascending and descending sequences.
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To create your own sequence, using what ever interval you like.
Just add your own interval for X and Z.
Ascending Sequence.
D-Eb-E-X-F-Gb-G-Ab-A-Bb-B-Z-C-Db-D-Eb-E-X-F-Gb-G-Ab-A-Bb-B-Z-C-Db etc
Descending Sequence.
D-Db-C-Z-B-Bb-A-Ab-G-Gb-F-X-E-Eb-D-Db-C-Z-B-Bb-A-Ab-G-Gb etc
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
I knew he was on a bunch of those later Dexter albums but didn’t know about Hank Mobley. Figures though!
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Originally Posted by princeplanet
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I did not know either about the Mobley albums either TBH. Hank Mobley is someone I did not listen to much yet (but I will and not just because of BH but because I am always interested to get to know something new ).
That reminded me of Reg recommending listening to and transcribing Hank Mobley instead of practicing BH stuff LOL.
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Barry Harris is on loads of other people’s albums, here’s a list (probably incomplete) from wikipedia:
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
But when I read
I felt tempted to reply something. You had already answered adequately while I remembered there was an older BH discography in the Internet Archive (the easiest way to log in and borrow is via a Google account if you have one). And among the first albums mentioned Barry played as a sideman for guess who. That reminded me of Reg recommending listening to and transcribing Hank Mobley instead of practicing BH stuff LOL. And then on most HM albums the bass is played by Paul Chambers who was one of Barry's earliest students ...
Aside from his records being great, he’s a common entry level choice in jazz edu for people who haven’t done much before because he’s simple and clear. Dexter is also a good entry level choice (More Power is great and has Barry on piano). Mostly 8th notes so a lot easier than Bird and Bud to start with.
In the long run it’s not an either/or. Barry knew all the Bud and Parker stuff backwards. He could say with some authority things like ‘bird never plays G7 on rhythm changes in bar 1’ and you bet your bottom dollar he’d learned every solo on record.
That said he’d have suggested learning heads first (Charles MacPherson says he’d not heard Barry talk much about working on solos, but a lot about learning heads.) heads will do the same for you, and have the bonus of being things you can play on gigs and jams.
Having tried to teach Barry’s stuff from day one I kind of think Barry is for people who can already play a bit of jazz and want to develop their playing.
But that’s me. Maybe others disagree.
I’d been going to Barry’s classes since 2006 but it only clicked for me when I really started digging into the music.Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-21-2023 at 04:27 PM.
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Here's another I like too:
Descend |C-B-Bb-Gb-G-Gb-F-Eb|E-Eb-D-B-C---|
Ascend |C-B-D-Eb-E-Eb-F-Gb|G-Gb-Bb-B-C---|
Enjoy.
Edit:
To make it easy, here is the sequence notated.
(Notated chromatics can get complex, so all the accidental notes are notated as needed.)
Last edited by GuyBoden; 12-01-2023 at 09:56 AM.
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I often forget how important, deep focused listening is.
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I'm not sure I follow the ascending version. So maybe I'll describe the pattern on the descending one, as I perceive it, and you tell me if I wrong?
target notes are C, E, and G.
each note is approached from below by a chromatic half step, and left by two descending chromatic half steps.
Close?
Is the ascending that each note is left by a descending half step and approached by two ascending chromatic half steps?
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Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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A traditional one, C7 descending
C G Bb A G Gb F Eb E C D B(b) C
and one ascending
C E D D# E G F F# G Bb A C Bb D C
EDIT: I corrected the descending one because there were some notes missing between scale notes:
C G Bb C A F# G Gb F Eb E C D B(b) CLast edited by Bop Head; 12-01-2023 at 03:53 PM.
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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I'm simply creating some chromatic sequences and keeping the sequences I like. I posted because I especially liked the descending sequence.
It sounds interesting to my ears, and yes, could be interpreted as a C Dom/Mix scale with added notes.
Descend |C-B-Bb-Gb-G-Gb-F-Eb|E-Eb-D-B-C---|
C Dom/Mix |C D E F G A Bb | added B Gb Eb
But, this is what I'd call a more Conventional Chromatic line.
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Playing BH descending chromatics from each degree of the chords that make up a major ii-V-I progression helped me get the conventional form under my fingers and into my ears when I first came across the concept.
Last edited by PMB; 12-01-2023 at 10:14 PM.
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