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tbh these days I’d be more interested in playing it on the piano and observing the voice movement than getting too much into the weeds on functional harmony.
That bluesy Ab-A on Bo7 F/C is characteristic for example. I think if this as a ‘blues’ prog in jazz (even though you can probably find the same voice leading in the classical canon.)
Also - gospel harmony tends to weaken the leading tone in cadences. We stick around on F which is why we have the C11 chord. This means we don’t have the typical F-E-F line you get in European music. The dominant remains suspended.Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-19-2023 at 03:31 AM.
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09-19-2023 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by wolflen
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Originally Posted by ragman1
@pingu thing is - it's a module. You see it in a million tunes. Be on the look out for it, and practice it.
The blues works nicely here BTW.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller;[URL="tel:1287516"
for me it’s three modules
In the tune example I used ....
For me there are three distinct used of Diminished chords
going on in that tune
1 bar 12. Fo to F (I now call it an Auxiliary Dim 1 chord
this is great , and will help me spot them/use them in the wild)
2 bar 13 C#o to Dm (I call it a 'leading' Dim chord)
and can be thought of as a sub for the destination chords V(b9)
(I already knew this diminished usage , 4 Dom(b9) chords a minor third apart etc etc)
3 bar 14 Bo to F ( technically in inversion of number 1 above)
(But I now hear it more as a blues cliche #4 chord)
The above may not be totally technically correct
But it works for me in the real world
Great stuff
Thanks all
I don't need any more help for now
In fact I have plenty to think about right there !
my version of the chord chart
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by Chris236
If you believe that the auxiliary diminished is a more reasonable explanation of that progression, then we'll just agree to disagree. Because I honestly don't think many people who are experienced in diminished harmony would see it that way in that progression.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by Chris236
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I mean forget assuming it’s F/C … listening to Nina Simone (and Billy Taylor and Derek Trucks) it’s definitely a fifth in the bass of the I chord after that sharp iv diminished. As far as bass motion goes I’m hearing this in the last four:
F/C C#o - Dm Bo - F/C C - F etc
So in both cases it seems pretty clear that the Bo is going to an F/C. Also a leading tone diminished for that Dm. Though in that case the A7b9 is kind of six of one, half dozen of the other.
(caveat … I don’t have perfect pitch and am not sitting at a piano so they might be in some other key.)
(additional caveat … this is based on quick listening to the first chorus or two of each. Those diminished chords are slippery and bass motion might be different somewhere else.)
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
now this is definitely splitting hairs .
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Btw, the effect is not similar to auxiliary diminished chord at all. Auxiliary diminished chord typically comes on a strong beat. The intended effect is to surprise the listener who expects the tonic chord at the end of a cadence.
The effect of auxiliary is similar to ending a major tune on bII Major (#11) and then (optionally) resolving that with the actual I chord.
In this progression Bo is on a weak beat resolving to the I chord. If there is any point in going out of one's way to name a harmonic device as "auxiliary diminished" then one shouldn't confuse it with #IV diminished. They describe different situations.
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Just to make it interesting....
Edim7 has 2 tritones, which creates options of 4 different 7th chords
E Bb.. can be C7 or Gb7
G Db,, can be Eb7 or A7
Which opens a ton of more harmonic options LOL
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Not really what’s going on here, but there’s also not always a clean name for everything going on.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by ragman1
F#o moving to C/G would most likely be #IVo if in the key of C.
in the key of G, Go7 going to G7 would be an auxiliary chord….in fact both would!
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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I played with gospel groups for a few years, and those C11's are key...but they'd be called a Bb/C. Actually, everything would be named as a slash chord, because it's all about that bass.
It's all about the bassline movement. You can hear it all get set up right in the intro of the Billy Taylor Trio recording.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
G7 and Go7 don’t share the same root? What the..!!!
Seriously though, context is everything with chords in general, not just diminished.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Moffa Mithra
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