Is minor "home" (Im) dorian, melodic, neither?

[pamosmusic]

Hey, wait a second!! Those charts have a C on the melody but they both have a Cm7 chord!! What do we do with that .

Im hearing some recordings playing a minor i vio iio V7 which would suggest Cm6 to G7 … and others doing a C Bb Ab G descending bassline which would be something like Cm-Cm/Bb-Fm6/Ab-G7 probably

[ragman1]

The I minor "home" chord just became dorian as per the Jazzadvice article

Look, I think we've said it all before, but if the minor's the i then a lot depends on the melody, the type of song it is, etc. And the same can be said for any minor, really. The melody is unquestionably a very good guide, which doesn't mean you're hog-tied by it.

How you solo it depends on the tune, what the mood is, and so on. You can play whatever you want over it - dorian, phrygian, aeolian, harmonic, melodic, chromatic, it doesn't matter so long as it fits.

This is jazz. One of the beauties of it is that it's your show. There's no 'You vill always play X over zis chord!'. It's up to you.

But that said, it shouldn't be taken too literally. It ought to be palatable to the ear, not sound like you've lost your mind :-)

[alez]

Im hearing some recordings playing a minor i vio iio V7 which would suggest Cm6 to G7 … and others doing a C Bb Ab G descending bassline which would be something like Cm-Cm/Bb-Fm6/Ab-G7 probably

Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. It's really interesting. Those two doesn't seem interchangeable to me, looks like different people took different roads here?

[ragman1]

PS. Sorry, I also completely disagree with that article you mentioned. Unless you're playing So What, which is absolutely dorian, personally I wouldn't use dorian (i.e. the Bb over Cm as a i chord) because it sounds too floaty. That's the whole point of that modal approach.

Make it sound like a i chord. It's home and ought to sound like it.

[alez]

PS. Sorry, I also completely disagree with that article you mentioned. Unless you're playing So What, which is absolutely dorian, personally I wouldn't use dorian (i.e. the Bb over Cm as a i chord) because it sounds too floaty. That's the whole point of that modal approach.

Make it sound like a i chord. It's home and ought to sound like it.

That's exactly what I understood from the different posts on here

Coming back to the only "evidence" still left of a Cm7 on this tune, which is the 2 charts quoted, the options are:

1. Section A is like So What and it's to be approached modally.
2. The charts are wrong in the sense that they fail to capture how this is played in practice.

Given the two chord movements Peter has described, I go with number 2.

[ragman1]

All right. If the chord before it is G7alt, and you're playing Ab melodic minor, then the B note is in that scale. That leads perfectly into the C on Cm7 or Cm6.

Or you can play the G below (also part of Ab mel) and then the C. That works nicely too.

Unless you're playing a bluesy lick, then you can use the Bb!

[ragman1]

Look at this. Study it. He uses several ways to end on the Cm. Blues, G7alt, you name it.

[pamosmusic]

1. Section A is like So What and it's to be approached modally.
2. The charts are wrong in the sense that they fail to capture how this is played in practice.

Given the two chord movements Peter has described, I go with number 2.

On number 2 … maybe not exactly wrong, but certainly they fail to capture how the tune is usually played, which is a super common problem with any chart you go to.

On number 1 … probably not. But the nice thing about the sort of rotating tonic dominant thing is that you can just sort of generalize long passages of that A section. On the Coltrane one McCoy does long pedal point dominant lines over the entire A section, or at least four to six measures of it. Coltrane definitely is using some Bbs … whether he’s using them over the G7 as blue note or over the Cm as flat 7s, I have no idea. Whether or not he gives a crap, I also have no idea. It also sounds like some A naturals here and there too. So the progression does kind of offer a lot of flexibility to stretch out. Modal … not exactly … but it’s pretty open.

[alez]

I love you, guys. This is so helpful. Thanks.

[ragman1]

the progression does kind of offer a lot of flexibility to stretch out. Modal … not exactly … but it’s pretty open.

What Peter says here is the thing, it's all yours to play with how you want. A little bit of experimentation and you'll have confidence to relax and just go for it in your own way. Jazz heaven :-)

[pamosmusic]

Actually kind of an interesting thing to Christians point wayyyyy down thread about simpler minor sounds being more common than we think …

We think of Coltrane as the archetypal harmonic spaceman, but most of his first chorus is C Eb F and G, landing on D fairly often for some color. But very few sixths or sevenths at all until later.

EDIT: on the Vanguard take.

[alez]

I took note of Christian's proposed approach, no need to use a 7th or 6th, use the lower half of the minor scales including the 9th and 11th. Nice one.

[ragman1]

Well, not quite. If you want to put the m6 sound in you've got to play it. Otherwise no one'll hear it.

[pamosmusic]

Well, not quite. If you want to put the m6 sound in you've got to play it. Otherwise no one'll hear it.

Yeah that was Christian’s point though, from what I remember. Just play a straight minor triad with some color. No need for it to be anything else.

I was just noting that most of Coltrane’s first chorus on that track was just 1 2 b3 4 5

[ragman1]

I have to be honest, I just went by alez' post which quoted Christian as saying he didn't need the 6th or 7th, only the lower half of the scale. I'm assuming it was probably in the video re-posted in #192. Which I haven't bothered to watch because I can easily guess what he's going to say. I've seen it all before!

Frankly, starting by saying the m7 'isn't really a minor chord' is some sort of intellectual indulgence and has no real practical reality. We all know (at least, I do) that the actual construction of the harmonised harmonic minor chords is not the way they're played. Show me one track where any of the great jazzers have dutifully played m/M7 and maj#5 and all that stuff.

Unfortunately poor devils like alez fall for this nonsense, partly because they're dependent on being told what to do by others and partly because they don't research it enough themselves. Some time actually playing this stuff and checking transcriptions would soon sort it out for them.

But even alez ought to realise that only playing half a scale is going to limit his playing and expression to an absurd, impractical and unmusical degree.

I'd like to say the gullibility and wastage of time of it all wants to make me weep but I should probably just let them get on with it and to hell with it.

But I'm really not good at that, I'd rather risk a backlash by speaking out.

[ragman1]

Dear alez -

You won't listen (because you think college-speak is very impressive) but you're wasting time. Put on a slowish loop:

| Dm7b5 | G7 | Cm7 | Cm6 |

and just play over it. Play Fm - Ab mel m - Cm - Cm6. Play it around the 1st, 3rd and 8th frets and don't stop till you're happy with it.

[pamosmusic]

I have to be honest, I just went by alez' post which quoted Christian as saying he didn't need the 6th or 7th, only the lower half of the scale. I'm assuming it was probably in the video re-posted in #192. Which I haven't bothered to watch because I can easily guess what he's going to say. I've seen it all before!

Frankly, starting by saying the m7 'isn't really a minor chord' is some sort of intellectual indulgence and has no real practical reality. We all know (at least, I do) that the actual construction of the harmonised harmonic minor chords is not the way they're played. Show me one track where any of the great jazzers have dutifully played m/M7 and maj#5 and all that stuff.

Unfortunately poor devils like alez fall for this nonsense, partly because they're dependent on being told what to do by others and partly because they don't research it enough themselves. Some time actually playing this stuff and checking transcriptions would soon sort it out for them.

But even alez ought to realise that only playing half a scale is going to limit his playing and expression to an absurd, impractical and unmusical degree.

I'd like to say the gullibility and wastage of time of it all wants to make me weep but I should probably just let them get on with it and to hell with it.

But I'm really not good at that, I'd rather risk a backlash by speaking out.

Oh good lord, the self-importance of this post. Thank goodness you’re here to speak truth to power, etc.

I literally just like … worked out some of the licks in a John Coltrane solo and found that that’s the bulk of what he used in his first chorus.

Of course he uses other stuff in there. Of course he uses other stuff later. Alez can use it or not. I found it interesting since it came up earlier.

[pamosmusic]

Surprisingly often melodies are based around the notes 1 2 b3 4 5

and it was this I was referring to.

[ragman1]

Oh good lord, the self-importance of this post. Thank goodness you’re here to speak truth to power, etc.

I literally just like … worked out some of the licks in a John Coltrane solo and found that that’s the bulk of what he used in his first chorus.

Of course he uses other stuff in there. Of course he uses other stuff later. Alez can use it or not. I found it interesting since it came up earlier.

Oh sure, self-importance.

Coltrane? We're talking about alez who's a beginner in all this, not Coltrane!

[pamosmusic]

Oh sure, self-importance.

Coltrane? We're talking about alez who's a beginner in all this, not Coltrane!

I mean I wasn’t really talking about Alez. I was talking about Coltrane.

Also I’m not sure why giving a beginner more to work with is better than giving a beginner less. But you know best, so I suppose I’ll defer.

[alez]

Doing some work on this...

Im hearing some recordings playing a minor i vio iio V7 which would suggest Cm6 to G7 … and others doing a C Bb Ab G descending bassline which would be something like Cm-Cm/Bb-Fm6/Ab-G7 probably

Can you remember the specific recordings you checked? I'd like to listen to them, maybe play their A sections in a loop while I try different things.

[ragman1]

alez - you're still here after 9 pages! How're you doing? Genius dedication!

[pamosmusic]

Doing some work on this...


Can you remember the specific recordings you checked? I'd like to listen to them, maybe play their A sections in a loop while I try different things.

Dont remember them all but I know Coltrane at the Vanguard and a Sonny Clark one.

[alez]

alez - you're still here after 9 pages! How're you doing? Genius dedication!

Given the last views you shared, I'm not sure if this is genuine or sarcasm. My dedication, well, I've been playing for decades, but at a low hours per week rate due to other life commitments. I am an amateur musician with different interests in life (like for example learning some English while living abroad in UK a few years for work). I'm really grateful to life for my modest achievements as a self-taught amateur musician and more so for the joyful journey so far. This forum (you all) has been immensely helpful too.

You know how I've been sounding like because you're one of the few who commented on here:
Hi, I'm back :-)
But maybe you haven't made the connection because you thought I play guitar:

and just play over it. Play Fm - Ab mel m - Cm - Cm6. Play it around the 1st, 3rd and 8th frets and don't stop till you're happy with it.

Anyway, thanks for taking the effort to share the backing track above

Dont remember them all but I know Coltrane at the Vanguard and a Sonny Clark one.

Will check, thanks a lot

[Christian Miller]

Good for you, alez!