Is minor "home" (Im) dorian, melodic, neither?

[ragman1]

Incidentally, talking about soloing without a backing, can anyone spot these? Both are very well known standards, no tricks. Probably the first one's very easy but can anyone say what the second one is? If I put the backing in (rather difficult now) you'd recognise it instantly.

Just for fun :-)

[ragman1]

Second one (they won't display two in one post).

[Christian Miller]

Yes, quit the rules; minor not only comes in different sounds;
those sounds sound further different inside a different song.

Play a Bbmadd9 like this on guitar 6 x 6 6 6 8 - the 9 on top Bb Ab Db F C
Play a Bbmadd9 like this on guitar 6 7 9 6 6 x - the 9 inside Bb F C Db F
(some would call this 9 a 2, depending on which octave they consider the chord tone octave and which the extension octave - jazz needs two octaves for scales and chords)
Play a Bbmadd9 like the second one above as the 2 of the pseudo 2-5 in Stella between the lyrics "at eventide" and "That ripples"... that is a very different minor sound in that context.

6 x 6 6 6 8

Isn’t a Bmadd9, it’s a Bm9

[ragman1]

6 x 6 6 6 8

Isn’t a Bmadd9, it’s a Bm9

Bm9? That's a Bbm9.

[pamosmusic]

Bm9? That's a Bbm13.

Christian forgot the flat sign but it’s a m9, not a m13

Bb Ab Db F C

or

1 b7 b3 5 9

no 13 in there.

[ragman1]

Corrected, thanks, I misread it.

Which brings up the difference between a m9 and a madd9. Basically the m9 is a m7 with a 9, usually on top. The add9 is the simple minor triad with an added 9.

So a Bbmadd9 would be

x8668

The Bb bass can be played with the thumb:

6x8668

Some madd9 shapes are quite hard to play. An Em9, for instance, is the familiar

x7577x

whereas an Emadd9 is

x7547x

which I find a bit of a stretch.

(The 9 can be added in an octave lower. See what pauln said in his post)

[st.bede]

Surprisingly often melodies are based around the notes 1 2 b3 4 5

anyway here’s a vid I did on the subject a while back - I think it covers all the points in my last post iirc

Awesome

[rintincop]

Levine was indeed anti harmonic minor, he used to lecture against it. I am not a fan of it either, in particular thinking of it as a scale melodicaly. I do think of the loose 9 note minor hybrid, the melodic minor , and the 6th diminished bop minor scale. And the Dorian too and the beloved minor blues scale.

[pamosmusic]

Levine was indeed anti harmonic minor, he used to lecture against it. I am not a fan of it either, in particular thinking of it as a scale melodicaly. I do think of the loose 9 note minor hybrid, the melodic minor , and the 6th diminished bop minor scale. And the Dorian too and the beloved minor blues scale.

Out of curiosity why was that?

It’s in the music, no? Donna Lee always being the first example to jump to mind.

[Christian Miller]

I think he actually gives an example of Bud Powell using it later on in the book.

[Christian Miller]

“The harmonic minor scale, prevalent in classical and folk music, is often mentioned in theory books as “the scale played over a minor II-V-I.” If that were true, you’d hear the great players playing the harmonic minor scale a lot on II-V-I progressions, but they don’t. They play fragments of it, but very rarely the entire scale.”

but then also
“Some players—Booker Ervin and Bud Powell for example—have played harmonic minor scale patterns frequently, while other great players don’t play them at all. Figure 23-6 shows Bud playing six notes from the D harmonic minor scale on bars 2-3 of his “Tempus Fugit.”5 Note that he plays the lick over two chords, A7b9 and D-6. As in Bud’s lick, the harmonic minor scale is most often played over V7b9 chords resolving to a minor chord a 5th below. Figure 23-6”

Chapter 23: Loose Ends (The jazz theory book)

so make of that what you will.

I agree more with the second paragraph obviously. It is one of the first scales I really noticed when I started transcribing bop.

There’s a bit more nuance to harmonic minor use. Barry Harris suggested we might not wish to overuse it, and his basic suggested method for its use is not to use the harm minor outright. It’s not one of his basic scales, but if we run the dominant down to the third we end up playing it anyway.

The augmented second leap is not unsual in stepwise scale runs in any case

[pamosmusic]

“The harmonic minor scale, prevalent in classical and folk music, is often mentioned in theory books as “the scale played over a minor II-V-I.” If that were true, you’d hear the great players playing the harmonic minor scale a lot on II-V-I progressions, but they don’t. They play fragments of it, but very rarely the entire scale.”

but then also
“Some players—Booker Ervin and Bud Powell for example—have played harmonic minor scale patterns frequently, while other great players don’t play them at all. Figure 23-6 shows Bud playing six notes from the D harmonic minor scale on bars 2-3 of his “Tempus Fugit.”5 Note that he plays the lick over two chords, A7b9 and D-6. As in Bud’s lick, the harmonic minor scale is most often played over V7b9 chords resolving to a minor chord a 5th below. Figure 23-6”

Chapter 23: Loose Ends (The jazz theory book)

so make of that what you will.

I agree more with the second paragraph obviously. It is one of the first scales I really noticed when I started transcribing bop.

There’s a bit more nuance to harmonic minor use. Barry Harris suggested we might not wish to overuse it, and his basic suggested method for its use is not to use the harm minor outright. It’s not one of his basic scales, but if we run the dominant down to the third we ended up playing it anyway.

The augmented second leap is not unsual in stepwise scale runs in any case

Thats kind of an unusual characterization of classical music too.

Until pretty late, they avoided that augmented second like the plague, even when they were using the notes themselves. You’d know better than I would, but I don’t really see much harmonic minor until romantic-nationalistic stuff, and that’s usually a gesture toward the folk influence anyway.

But pretty common in a lot jazz. Maybe in the same way. Guys will use the flat six and the natural seven but might avoid running through them in succession because of that augmented second. Just kind of an odd place to come down on it.

[Christian Miller]

Thats kind of an unusual characterization of classical music too.

Until pretty late, they avoided that augmented second like the plague, even when they were using the notes themselves. You’d know better than I would, but I don’t really see much harmonic minor until romantic-nationalistic stuff, and that’s usually a gesture toward the folk influence anyway.

yeah agreed

tbh I don’t think a lot of jazzers get how minor is used in classical… mixed minor use is a bit of an art form but I think we are often taught to stick to one scale because we tend to think of everything as ‘on the chords’

I wouldn’t say it was avoided like the plague exactly, but no, you wouldn’t find many aug 2nd leaps in basslines and melodies. Acceptable in scalar runs and in middle voices. Tbh a bit like bebop.

But pretty common in a lot jazz. Maybe in the same way. Guys will use the flat six and the natural seven but might avoid running through them in succession because of that augmented second. Just kind of an odd place to come down on it.

Again I would say aug second is fine in scalar runs. It tends to be avoided on prominent direction changes and too near the starting note of the run.

One common way to handle the aug2 in both baroque and bop is to use an octave displacement (like in the Grant Green minor lick or the 4th two part invention theme.)

but there’s always exceptions

anyway I feel there’s about the same amount of harmonic minor in both jazz and classical.

[rpjazzguitar]

I didn't learn it this way, but it seems like it might have been easier to think of CHarmminor as a G7b9b13 scale -- perhaps as a 6 note scale, omitting the C. That seems to be a frequent way it's used.

[alez]

Surprisingly often melodies are based around the notes 1 2 b3 4 5

anyway here’s a vid I did on the subject a while back - I think it covers all the points in my last post iirc

I finally found the time to watch this carefully. I love it. Thanks a lot

[alez]

In relation to this thread, can you guys write the chords for Softly, as in a Morning Sunrise?

I believe this is usually played in the key of C minor.

I'm interested in how you would notate in a chart:

• The C minor chord (in all / most of section A). To me, it seems a Cm7 as emphasised by the melody on measure #3. Looking at some of the ideas here with regards to "true minor", this Cm7 would imply a "not true minor" section A. Even modal, given there's actually no harmonic movement?
• The F minor chord (on measure #5 of the bridge). To me, it seems a Fm7. I don't have a specific argument against a Fm6. Maybe you have comments on this.

[pamosmusic]

In relation to this thread, can you guys write the chords for Softly, as in a Morning Sunrise?

I believe this is usually played in the key of C minor.

I'm interested in how you would notate in a chart:

• The C minor chord (in all / most of section A). To me, it seems a Cm7 as emphasised by the melody on measure #3. Looking at some of the ideas here with regards to "true minor", this Cm7 would imply a "not true minor" section A. Even modal, given there's actually no harmonic movement?
• The F minor chord (on measure #5 of the bridge). To me, it seems a Fm7. I don't have a specific argument against a Fm6. Maybe you have comments on this.

I don’t think there’s a Bb in the melody there, is there?

I’d play the A section as Cm6 and G7 the whole way through until the second ending. Sometimes I’ll do an Ab7 instead of Cm here and there for fun.

B section I’d probably stick with Fm6 just because it’s sort of a pivot chord from the Eb major to Cm tonal center, but I guess either one is fine honestly.

[alez]

I don’t think there’s a Bb in the melody there, is there?

Hmm, doesn't the melody go like this?

[garybaldy]

Hmm, doesn't the melody go like this?

[ragman1]

But, alez, that's one you wrote yourself!

[ragman1]

I've never understood why a tune called 'Softly, as in a morning sunrise' should be so fast and LOUD!

[alez]

Oh, wow, I got that very note wrong, it's a C... I've now listened to the head in other recordings and noticed a few different things with the melody rhythm too, but anyway, this note is clearly a C not a Bb.

Thanks!!

[alez]

But, alez, that's one you wrote yourself!

Hey, wait a second!! Those charts have a C on the melody but they both have a Cm7 chord!! What do we do with that then

I've never understood why a tune called 'Softly, as in a morning sunrise' should be so fast and LOUD!

It's like the tunes called "something" blues, none conform to the blues formula.

[ragman1]

Cm7 chord!! What do we do with that then

Play Cm7 :-)

(edit) or Cm6, of course.

That means you just play round the Cm as usual only you put in a nice natural A when it feels good and right.

[alez]

I’d play the A section as Cm6 and G7 the whole way through until the second ending.

Play Cm7 :-)

Major 6th and minor 7th! The I minor "home" chord just became dorian as per the Jazzadvice article linked on the first post of this thread!