Is minor "home" (Im) dorian, melodic, neither?

[pamosmusic]

You're repeating a discussion which has already been corrected, explained and modified long ago. Inaccurately, as it happens.

Just practice and sleep? Sounds like you need to get out and take a breath of fresh air to me!

Funny you mention that, but I just finished mowing the lawn. That last little exchange happened to catch me at a water break.

And I don’t know man. You keep claiming that people don’t understand Blue Bossa, which to a jazz nerd is a bit like claiming a chef doesn’t know what an omelette is. But if we’re done discussing, I’m all for that.

[ragman1]

I just finished mowing the lawn.

Ah, ha, it was destined to happen, then! This is good.

You keep claiming that people don’t understand Blue Bossa

I never said that, not once, not ever.

But if we’re done discussing, I’m all for that.

Okay, but these things aren't always predictable. Here, have a big smiley face! Why not?

[pamosmusic]

Finally.

[ragman1]

Not quite, just afore I go...

Have a look at this. See, this is how things get complicated round here. Not trying to have the last word, etc, but I happened to see it.

You curtly told me that I shouldn’t be so bound by the melody and continued to insist on harmonic minor.

What I actually said (in post #33) was:

'I'm not necessarily dictated to by the melody in a solo situation.'

That was about soloing, not about analysis of the head.

This is how it happens. Sorry to go back.

[mr. beaumont]

I'd like to simplify this for everyone by saying that the m7 is a shitty i minor chord (assuming the tune is the usual functional harmony style)

[ragman1]

Well, possibly, but at the start a m7 is maybe more true to a jazz sound than right at the end. Just as we change a M7 to a 6 for finality's sake, what could we do for a minor? Just a straight minor? Or m6 possibly?

I was thinking of Autumn Leaves, the sections end on a vanilla Em. According to my sheets, anyway.

[mr. beaumont]

Never underestimate the power of the triad

[ragman1]

You've seen those vids about the power (or something) of the Major Scale. Dammit, we'll soon be playing everything with vanilla chords and major scales. Yippee!

You probably know, but it is seriously possible to play anything using only major scales... I'm sorely tempted to do one right now!

[pamosmusic]

You've seen those vids about the power (or something) of the Major Scale. Dammit, we'll soon be playing everything with vanilla chords and major scales. Yippee!

You probably know, but it is seriously possible to play anything using only major scales... I'm sorely tempted to do one right now!

I kind of do this already.

[Christian Miller]

I'd like to simplify this for everyone by saying that the m7 is a shitty i minor chord (assuming the tune is the usual functional harmony style)

It does wind me up when people play that. I try not to tell them off these days lol. There’s probably diplomatic ways you can do it…..

[jazznylon]

You've seen those vids about the power (or something) of the Major Scale. Dammit, we'll soon be playing everything with vanilla chords and major scales. Yippee!

You probably know, but it is seriously possible to play anything using only major scales... I'm sorely tempted to do one right now!

I'm reminded of the youtube video in which they replaced John Coltrane's solo with only notes from the major scale. I wish I could find it now

[rpjazzguitar]

A few comments on issues arising in this thread.

When I play Blue Bossa I think C natural minor. Well, maybe. I might be thinking Eb major. Actually, I don't think about it much. But, playing those notes can take you pretty far in the tune.

I try to scat sing a line in my mind and play that. It's likely to turn out to be Cnatmin. But, it might have alternative 6s and 7s. Those choices would be unconscious -- part of the scat sung line.

But, I'm always looking for ways to sound more interesting, so maybe I should think about four different minors. Or better ways to harmonize it -- more below.

And, as an aside and a bit of thread hijack, we don't talk much about attitude in soloing. But, I have come to believe there's something to it. That is, you take whatever you know about jazz and then solo with force and intention. This isn't sufficient, but maybe it's necessary to sound good on material that has some oomph to it. Many players accomplish this with great chops, attack and time. But, even without great chops, it's possible to play forcefully. Admittedly, I have to remind myself to do it, but when I do it, I'm likely to get better feedback from the other players.

And, last thing. I learned from Carl Barry, decades ago, that Chuck Wayne developed his chord solos by harmonizing every note. And then, he'd try to solo on every one of those chords.

Many years later, I did my first chart for four horns. It was a simple one where all four horns played on every melody note. So each note is a chord and you have to figure out the harmony or it will sound pretty bad. Seems like the same process, except for making it playable on guitar. Seems obvious, but it was something I'd never given much thought.

Although I don't really know much about it, this gets into the arranger's art. There are techniques available to harmonize. For example, if you're harmonizing the first 2 bars of All of Me, you can harmonize some notes with C tonic type voicings and others with G dominant type voicings - to take the simplest example. Another technique is harmonizing movement with diminished chords. Better technique would involve using more sophisticated interpolations.

And yet, for some reason, nobody has ever suggested to me studying horn arrangements to learn chord patterns. Seems like it wouldn't be a bad idea. And, chord patterns (thanks to Reg for bringing this up here) seem like a key to making your comping sound like real jazz.

[ragman1]

Here we go. Carnegie here I come

[ragman1]

I kind of do this already.

By accident, or...?

[pamosmusic]

By accident, or...?

Not accidental. Maybe incidental.

Lots of cool stuff in the major scale already, and any of the other cool sounds out there, you can make happen with a well-placed triad or two.

[alez]

It is. In fact, trumpet is rather good for this tune.

How much of your playing are you recording? You should absolutely, definitely, record it - against a backing track so both are audible. Then you'll know.

If it obviously clashes, find out where and why and change it. Progress guaranteed :-)

I do it from time to time. Extremely useful for things like intonation and expression.

As for clashes and the like, for some reason I notice them instantly, I'm being able to listen to these things while I solo. It's probably to do with the fact that the trumpet requires some attention in order to produce notes that are in tune.

I think that m7 weakens the sound of minor, in that it makes it sound less minor. I think it’s the major triad b3-5-b7 that does it. It’s not a good or bad thing… but you have to be definitive sometimes to make a point.

I had to unlearn playing m7 on minor to play the styles of music I needed to play. But if you just play 60s style hard bop or something you might not see a distinction. It all depends on who you listen and what you like.

check out Nica’s Dream for further info.

Oh, OK, I see! I just played these on the piano and I see what you mean. Yes, the m7 chord sounds less minor. Nice one. I guess notation makes it counterintuitive this time. I mean, the MINOR seventh sounds more MAJOR and the MAJOR sixth sounds more MINOR.

Thanks all so much for this. I've been away this weekend (camping) and I'm trying to catch up this morning.

[pamosmusic]

Thanks all so much for this. I've been away this weekend (camping) and I'm trying to catch up this morning.

You’re in for a wild ride

[alez]

Regarding the major 7th, it's a case of acclimating to it. I would describe it as dark rather than harsh...

I'm being able to use it now. Very nice. Thanks

[ragman1]

alez -

Thanks for liking my moment of enlightenment but, as I say, and I really mean it, all this academic analysis is very secondary to actually playing the tune. If it's not actually played it reduces music to some sort of intellectual exercise. That might amuse some people, and we know it does, but it's not really the point at all.

Just to recap, it's very simple. BB has a natural minor melody but harmonic min chords (not the Db bit). Cm7 - Fm7 - Dm7b5 - G7b9 - Cm7 is a harmonic minor progression. It's very possible to play nothing but C nat m/Eb maj over it... but it makes for a pretty boring solo more than once.

So what will you do with it after you've played the head? That's the real question in my view.

[ragman1]

By the way, did you catch the clip I did? I didn't analyse it (and I really regret getting entangled in all that blah), I just played the head and then used all kinds of harmonies to solo with. That's FAR more important than a lot of argumentative beard-scratching.

[alez]

Anyway, the short answer to the OP's question is it obviously depends on the tune. So that's that.

I'd like to simplify this for everyone by saying that the m7 is a shitty i minor chord (assuming the tune is the usual functional harmony style)

Reading these makes me think I'm navigating the thread correctly, because this is pretty much what I was making of it.

It does wind me up when people play that. I try not to tell them off these days lol. There’s probably diplomatic ways you can do it…..

I do much worse things all the time. I'm really lucky that the jam sessions I go to are so friendly with such laid back atmosphere.

[alez]

alez -

Thanks for liking my moment of enlightenment but, as I say, and I really mean it, all this academic analysis is very secondary to actually playing the tune. If it's not actually played it reduces music to some sort of intellectual exercise. That might amuse some people, and we know it does, but it's not really the point at all.

Just to recap, it's very simple. BB has a natural minor melody but harmonic min chords (not the Db bit). Cm7 - Fm7 - Dm7b5 - G7b9 - Cm7 is a harmonic minor progression. It's very possible to play nothing but C nat m/Eb maj over it... but it makes for a pretty boring solo more than once.

So what will you do with it after you've played the head? That's the real question in my view.

Thank you

Point taken. Yes to all this.

I've seen minor tunes that have a strictly natural minor melody over functional minor harmony. Like Summertime. BB happens to use the b7 of the scale right over the V7 chord. No big deal. I sometimes go bVII "lydian b7" over this V7, which means the leading is not available. I think I understand all this. It's the Im not the V7 that I'm trying to tackle here.

Also a similar thing happens in a vanilla 3-chord blues, where the (tone) b7 of the "key" is a natural choice over the V (the #9 of the chord but I don't think that's too relevant), so much so that the blues harp required to play a blues in C does not even have a B tone available.

[Reg]

So Alez...

An easy way to hear what you like... is to make every chord... a Temporary Tonal Target. Non theoretical approach... just play the chord by it's self with the Tune still in your head. Make that chord a vamp. Extend it.

Say in BB ... play the tune and then just vamp on the C-7 or whatever you want to call the 1st chord. And make that a vamp by adding the V7 chord so ....C- to G7. usually C-7

Now just use your ears and either use melody and embellish it or develop it.... Your just using the 1st 2 bars....

What type of V7 chord do you hear or like..... then add the 2nd chord to that vamp.... make it a 4 bar vamp, Still keeping the tune in your head,

So that usually will make you decide what you like....

Typically most will hear old school basic harmonic movement... the C- becomes nat Min and the G7 become G7b9b13 from C Har. Min. You might even start to hear F# a standard Min. Blue Note used with Cmin Pent.
And C-7 tends to work well. C-6 gets a little muddy...LOL


Now make the tune a Bossa.... play a C- montuno vamp on C- ....

Now the C-7 become C-7 Dorian , again old school standard chord pattern etc... C-7 to C-6.... (C-7 F7) II-V7
The maj 7th, (B) becomes pretty easy to use... on the F7....

Now add the 2ne chord F-7... generally the vamp with F-7 becomes F-7 to C7alt.

OK I'll stop.... I've arranged BB with 2 horns and even a few Big Band versions.... the harmonic or melodic choices... become easy when your voicing out all the notes of the melody and creating counter melodies etc...
Even just writing out a 5 part... like a sax section will also make it musically pretty clear... Especially when played in time or tempo.

[alez]

By the way, did you catch the clip I did? I didn't analyse it (and I really regret getting entangled in all that blah), I just played the head and then used all kinds of harmonies to solo with. That's FAR more important than a lot of argumentative beard-scratching.

Nice clip. Everything you play goes very well with the harmony. I paid attention to the choices over Im. Also to the fact that you're following the changes sort of one by one.

So Alez...

An easy way to hear what you like... is to make every chord... a Temporary Tonal Target. Non theoretical approach... just play the chord by it's self with the Tune still in your head. Make that chord a vamp. Extend it.

Understood, thanks.

But it's also important to know what the comping is most likely to be playing when there's a Im. If I solo over a minor triad, I'll be getting a lot more freedom than in an actual jam session where the band is comping God knows what additions. In such situation, I get like 4 opportunities to try different things and draw conclusions, assuming a couple of resolutions per chorus, ha ha! Luckily, there are good backing tracks to help with this (trying out stuff over "real world" harmony).

[ragman1]

... following the changes sort of one by one.

To some extent here, yes, but I only do that when the tune is slow enough to warrant it. Over faster changes I'd find lines to cover them.

Despite some people frowning on it I'm not a fan of using the same scale or set of notes over multiple chords; it's too easy to fudge them. I want to hear the changes move, so much so that if the backing were removed the changing harmonies would be apparent.