Is minor "home" (Im) dorian, melodic, neither?

[pamosmusic]

Sometimes we hear what we want...LOL

Well, this is certainly true.

Yea Emmet's hang is cool..

Yeah I used to work at a club where he’d play organ trio on Sunday mornings for basically no one. Really nice guy.

But where is the BH.

Pasquale does have more out in the world than the one video. His comping for Samara Joy is beautiful.

[pamosmusic]

I'll try and post more stuff.... comping organizational concepts etc... I'm off to work... LOL.

No sweat. I understand what you mean. Wasn’t clear from the video, but I’m there now.

[ragman1]

I have to ask.

Why does Reg say it and earn a smile face when a whole thread full of people have been saying it all day and it gets called “academic BS”

I must say. I’m feeling a bit put out.

Where’s my cordial smiley face?

You don't get a smiley face because you're inaccurate. Only one person got the natural minor for Blue bossa and that was Christian in #48. And I'm afraid I rubbished that idea which wasn't very clever of me.

Everyone else, including Christian initially and both you and I, got it wrong. Only when I saw Reg's post did it click.

[pamosmusic]

You don't get a smiley face because you're inaccurate. Only one person got the natural minor for Blue bossa and that was Christian in #48. And I'm afraid I rubbished that idea which wasn't very clever of me.

Everyone else, including Christian initially and both you and I, got it wrong. Only when I saw Reg's post did it click.

Remarkable.

[ragman1]

I should also say that I'd forgotten the tune. But I remember now that I thought it was Eb when I first saw it. But the point was it didn't matter because that was just the head. If you think of it, the fact that the head can be analysed as 'Aeolian' is of no relevance if all you've got to do is play it.

After that, as far as I'm concerned, the natural minor becomes redundant. There's no way I'd use Eb maj for a whole solo because it doesn't really work. The tune's nice but the Eb major by itself is bland, frankly. So I've no doubt that's why it left my mind. I'd still do what I did in that clip before because it's better music, basically. And I can't find any solo by known artists who've used it either.

There's also, if one wants to be pernickety about it, the fact that the dominant of C natural minor is Bb7, not G7. G7 belongs to C harmonic.

So apparently the chords are C harmonic but the melody is C natural. No wonder the confusion. So I'm not blaming anyone for not getting it right away, including myself.

[ragman1]

Remarkable.

Not really, just a matter of checking properly.

[rpjazzguitar]

Christian somewhere back there you posted the four minors, but with phrygian where I expected harmonic minor.

So, the b67 ... Cminmajb6? Or, Cm^b6.

[pingu]

1285873[/URL]]Look man. All I want is an old school keyboard smiley face. Is that too much to ask?

no

:0)

[rpjazzguitar]

Everything is like major scale unless otherwise specified.out the diminished and half dims tho. Ah just covert them into dominant and minor chords… Bm7b5 = G7 or Dm6, Bo = G7b9. Works great then.

Bo7 is B D F Ab which is a rootless G7b9. I've always wondered why it isn't called Bm6b5.

[Christian Miller]

Christian somewhere back there you posted the four minors, but with phrygian where I expected harmonic minor.

So, the b67 ... Cminmajb6? Or, Cm^b6.

yes

EDIT but as discussed that application is rarer than 7b9b13

[rpjazzguitar]

yes

EDIT but as discussed that application is rarer than 7b9b13

Cm^b6 would be C Eb G Ab B.
C harmonic minor C D Eb F G Ab B

I can't think of an application.

[Christian Miller]

Cm^b6 would be C Eb G Ab B.
C harmonic minor C D Eb F G Ab B

I can't think of an application.

OK, this is all massively irrelevant BS but I'll walk you through the process in case you haven't quite got it.

Chart says Cm(maj7)b6 (or b13)

We take a C major scale

C D E F G A B C
and alter it as mandated by the chord symbol, so b3, b6 and b13
C D Eb F G Ab B C
Not a very common choice on Cm, but it does happen.

For G7b9b13

We take a G major scale
G A B C D E F# G
And alter according to the chord symbol - b9, b7, b13
G Ab B C D Eb F G

Same notes, different order (ie 'mode')

Quite a common choice over a G7 chord.

It seems to me that my System (tm) has two features
- you are never going to be asking 'what scale goes on that chord?' because you can always derive one
- we just name the scales after the chord

If you want to get away from the root, simply employ chord subs.

We already use this logic a bit anyway - the altered chord/scale for example. Actually from the pop of fretboard mapping this would make a lot of sense. Just take a chord shape and add the other notes around it using this formula.

[rpjazzguitar]

OK, this is all massively irrelevant BS but I'll walk you through the process in case you haven't quite got it.

Chart says Cm(maj7)b6 (or b13)

We take a C major scale

C D E F G A B C
and alter it as mandated by the chord symbol, so b3, b6 and b13
C D Eb F G Ab B C
Not a very common choice on Cm, but it does happen.

For G7b9b13

We take a G major scale
G A B C D E F# G
And alter according to the chord symbol - b9, b7, b13
G Ab B C D Eb F G

Same notes, different order (ie 'mode')

Quite a common choice over a G7 chord.

It seems to me that my System (tm) has two features
- you are never going to be asking 'what scale goes on that chord?' because you can always derive one
- we just name the scales after the chord

If you want to get away from the root, simply employ chord subs.

We already use this logic a bit anyway - the altered chord/scale for example. Actually from the pop of fretboard mapping this would make a lot of sense. Just take a chord shape and add the other notes around it using this formula.

Understood. I also see the advantage of using chord names to represent scales.

[pamosmusic]

Cm^b6 would be C Eb G Ab B.
C harmonic minor C D Eb F G Ab B

I can't think of an application.

Inverted major 7 sharp 9, baby!

Edit … no particular reason I think this other than just some limited experience, but it seems like half steps in the upper structure are unusual choices because they tend to have this effect. The half step really sounds like a leading tone and makes whatever the top note is sound like a root.

My guess is it would be a challenge to voice that Cm(maj7)b6 chord in a way that sounds tonic or minor.

[Christian Miller]

Everyone else, including Christian initially and both you and I, got it wrong. Only when I saw Reg's post did it click.

Hahah no I didn't you absolute troll. You just can't read.

[ragman1]

Hahah no I didn't you absolute troll. You just can't read.

Your #48 is the first direct mention of the Blue Bossa melody being in natural minor. It's a fact.

[pamosmusic]

Your #48 is the first direct mention of natural minor. It's a fact.

Attachment 104554

This is the silliness again.

The literal first time Blue Bossa was mentioned here was me. It was in the fourth post.

I said it’s a C minor 7 tonic chord but there’s an Ab in the melody. If you don’t know that’s natural minor, that’s on you. The article in the OP spells all those minor scales out explicitly, so I figured I could assume people knew that stuff. Guess not.

I then went on to say that the Ab doesn’t land on the C minor though, so the Dorian mode is kind of nice vibe there. Which, if you’ll recall, is exactly what your dude Reg said he sometimes plays there.

When I said the patronizing vibe often feels like projection, this is what I mean. You didn’t know the tune, you didn’t understand the question, you didn’t read the answers, and you’re saying that other people were wrong like you were. I promise you I understand this tune. It’s totally fine if you made a mistake, but you don’t have to pull everyone else in with you. It’s a little weird.

You might even call it … silliness. Just silliness.

[pamosmusic]

It’s quite nice to jump on a thread like this and see Christian and djg yacking about the way Wes treats tonic minor over the course of his career.

Its cool because I don’t know that stuff.

It’s only weird if I jump in and say they’re both wrong and then insist I’m right, but later realize I’m wrong and insist that they were wrong the whole time too.

If I just read it and go “cool I didn’t know that” or ask questions or disagree politely and then get taken to task, it’s just learning.

That other thing is some wild stuff though.

[ragman1]

I said it’s a C minor 7 tonic chord but there’s an Ab in the melody. If you don’t know that’s natural minor, that’s on you.

An Ab would also apply to harmonic minor. And the chords are harmonic minor chords, not natural minor.

[pamosmusic]

An Ab would also apply to harmonic minor.

Which is why everyone and their mother told you to look at the melody, boss.

Not a B natural to be found.

You curtly told me that I shouldn’t be so bound by the melody and continued to insist on harmonic minor.

See? Silliness.

We MIGHT even be approaching goofball behavior here.

[pamosmusic]

An Ab would also apply to harmonic minor. And the chords are harmonic minor chords, not natural minor.

And I feel it is incumbent upon me to inform you that, in point of fact, a Cm7 chord with an Ab does NOT also apply to C harmonic minor.

Because it’s a minor 7 chord.

Which has a Bb.

If you’d read the article the original question was referencing, it does a good deal to explain the way that harmonies are borrowed across minor tonalities.

A G7 in the next bar does not mean that a Cm7 has a B natural in it.

[ragman1]

Are you sitting there all the time, poised on the button? Is this all you do?

[pamosmusic]

Are you sitting there all the time, poised on the button? Is this all you do?

Nah. I practice too. And sleep from time to time.

[ragman1]

You're repeating a discussion which has already been corrected, explained and modified long ago. Inaccurately, as it happens.

Just practice and sleep? Sounds like you need to get out and take a breath of fresh air to me!

[ragman1]

Is minor "home" (Im) dorian, melodic, neither?

Anyway, the short answer to the OP's question is it obviously depends on the tune. So that's that.