Phrygian Dominant Add #9

[GuyBoden]

Then what is the point? Enlighten me.

It's meaningless, but, what name would you use, if you ever used this collection of notes, but in a non-Barry-Harris method?

[Tal_175]

And which note is the b9 when there are only seven notes in the scale?

The b9 of G phrygian dominant for example is Ab. The minor third interval is between Ab and B (or between b6 and 7th of C harmonic minor).
I'm sure you can figure this out yourself easily.

[ragman1]

It's meaningless, but, what name would you use, if you ever used this collection of notes, but in a non-Barry-Harris method?

Bebop Phrygian Dominant, I suppose. I mean, that's what all the other bebop scales are called - Major Bebop, Bebop Melodic Minor, Bebop Harmonic Minor, etc, etc.

Bebop scale - Wikipedia

[ragman1]

The b9 of G phrygian dominant for example is Ab. The minor third interval is between Ab and B (or between b6 and 7th of C harmonic minor).
I'm sure you can figure this out yourself easily.

You haven't answered the question. Not what it is, but what is the point of calling it a #9? Chords have #9's, scales/modes don't.

[Tal_175]

The idea of adding an extra passing note (to make the notes fall on the right places) was not invented by Barry Harris.

And which note is the b9 when there are only seven notes in the scale?

You haven't answered the question. Not what it is, but what is the point of calling it a #9? Chords have #9's, scales don't.

I give up dude. You keep moving the goal post. I'll let someone else to take it from here.

[GuyBoden]

Bebop Phrygian Dominant, I suppose. I mean, that's what all the other bebop scales are called - Major Bebop, Bebop Melodic Minor, Bebop Harmonic Minor, etc, etc.

Bebop scale - Wikipedia

I like it, very good, well done, it's the best name yet IMHO.

[ragman1]

I'm not moving anything. On the contrary, I'm not budging an inch, as I said before.

Maybe the chromatic scale has a #9 because it has 12 notes in it. But that idea is redundant because the #9 is already part of it. But a scale or mode which only has seven notes (eight if you add one) has no 9 in it, let alone a #9.

This is just plain logical sense.

[ragman1]

I like it, very good, well done, it's the best name yet IMHO.

Not rocket science

[GuyBoden]

I'm not moving anything. On the contrary, I'm not budging an inch, as I said before.

Maybe the chromatic scale has a #9 because it has 12 notes in it. But that idea is redundant because the #9 is already part of it. But a scale or mode which only has seven notes (eight if you add one) has no 9 in it, let alone a #9.

This is just plain logical sense.

I think there is an imaginary 9 note in the scale, so if you imagine it's there, you can also add an #9 next to the imaginary note.

It's just simple Imaginary Note Scale Theory.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

8-note scales are not new. This is simply one of them.

Dan Haerle calls them "synthetic scales". OTOH - who says that a scale has 7 notes in it, and where did those people come from? Whoever invented pentatonic scale(s) may have an opinion too.

This is art, applied to physics. We can have 8-note scales.

[Christian Miller]

right, you silly sausages if you think for one minute I am going to waste my precious time arguing the toss about pointless irrelevant stuff that doesn’t really matter … then all I can say is of course I’m going to do that, what do you take me for?

The correct enharmonic spelling is b3.

Normal Phrygian C Db Eb F G Ab Bb

Phrygian dominant C Db E F G Ab Bb

if you add both scales together you get
C Db Eb E F G Ab Bb

Which is to say a scale with both the minor and major third. It’s fine.

now look at what the third note here is not. It not D bloody sharp which is what the #9 would be. And when you alter it you make a flat note into a natural note. Exactly as you would with any move from major to minor.

OTOH if you look at it from the point of view of the OP, the process is that you are taking the Bb in a Bb7 and raising it to a B. The third of G7. You are NOT taking an A# scale because that would be very dumb.

crimes against enharmony, I tell you! Just because some doofus called it the E7#9 chord back in the Precambrian everyone loses their minds and forgets basic theory. and that the blues exists and we can play minor scales on dominant chords. Or indeed combine them into 8 note + scales where the alphabet rule breaks down anyway.

For my next rant - the altered scale. Why is so theoretically broken? And why can’t people get over themselves and transcribe bebop solos in a BLINKING KEY SIGNATURE.

[Tal_175]

I think there is an imaginary 9 note in the scale, so if you imagine it's there, you can also add an #9 next to the imaginary note.

It's just simple Imaginary Note Scale Theory.

You can have #9 without a 9. Lydian mode doesn't have an imaginary 4th.

[Christian Miller]

8-note scales are not new. This is simply one of them.

Dan Haerle calls them "synthetic scales". OTOH - who says that a scale has 7 notes in it, and where did those people come from? Whoever invented pentatonic scale(s) may have an opinion too.

7 is a lucky number.

(I was about to post some tedious screed taking in Pythagoras, Roman water organs, the Guidonian hexachord and the development of the chronic gamut in the c14, but honestly I suspect that’s what it might boil down to. Numerology.)

see also Newton, colours of the spectrum

of course the main reason today is that seven note scales have been historically favoured in the cultures we grew up in. But musicians are great at making up bullshit reasons for stuff.

This is art, applied to physics. We can have 8-note scales.

More like physics applied to art if anything. But you are right if you mean that physics doesn’t dictate a scale to have seven notes. The proof is in all the different scales worldwide as you say.

[pamosmusic]

right, you silly sausages if you think for one minute I am going to waste my precious time arguing the toss about pointless irrelevant stuff that doesn’t really matter … then all I can say is of course I’m going to do that, what do you take me for?

Okay you’ve inspired me to say something I really wanted to say earlier but didn’t.

The Ab to B is technically an augmented second. If we’re splitting hairs.

Which — obviously we are.

As you were.

[Christian Miller]

Okay you’ve inspired me to say something I really wanted to say earlier but didn’t.

The Ab to B is technically an augmented second. If we’re splitting hairs.

Which — obviously we are.

As you were.

If I named that interval I would have referred to it as an augmented second matey. I’m not a barbarian.

[Christian Miller]

The question is - would I have referred to its inversion as a diminished seventh (common in bebop and Bach) instead of a m*n*r s*xth - and there alas you may have me.

[GuyBoden]

You can have #9 without a 9. Lydian mode doesn't have an imaginary 4th.

The Lydian mode does have an imaginary 4th.

#9, #4, b5, b9 etc is about imagining a Major scale and then how every other scale's interval relates to this imaginary Major scale.

It's just simple Imaginary Note Scale Theory.

[Tal_175]

The Lydian mode does have an imaginary 4th.

#9, #4, b5, b9 etc is about imagining a Major scale and then how every other scale's interval relates to this imaginary Major scale.

It's just simple Imaginary Note Scale Theory.

Do we have to imagine the natural minor scale having an imaginary major 3rd in order to make sense of the b3? Does the locrian scale have an imaginary perfect 5th?

The b5 is just another way of saying the diminished fifth interval. Diminished fifth or augmented fourth are intervals in their own rights. Yes, one way to obtain diminished fifth is to first imagine a perfect fifth and then flatten it. But one doesn't have to conclude from that that "the locrian scale to has an imaginary perfect fifth". That's just not how I think about it.

[GuyBoden]

Do we have to imagine the natural minor scale having an imaginary major 3rd in order to make sense of the b3? Does the locrian scale have an imaginary perfect 5th?

Sorry, I wasn't taking this thread seriously enough.

[Reg]

Anything works if you can play and nothing works if you can’t…

LOL How Many years have I been posting this...

[pauln]

Do we have to imagine the natural minor scale having an imaginary major 3rd in order to make sense of the b3? Does the locrian scale have an imaginary perfect 5th?

Do we have to imagine the chromatic scale having an imaginary silence in order to make sense?

The number of scales is a permutation with repetition, n^r where n is the number of pitches to choose from, and we choose r of them (how many pitches in the scale), repetition is allowed, and order matters.

How many 5 pitch scales? 12^5 = 248,832
How many 7 pitch scales? 12^7 = 35,831,808
How many 8 pitch scales? 12^8 = 429,981,696
How many 12 pitch scales? 12^12 = 8,916,100,448,256

Can we have more scales (assuming equal temperament without bends)? Not until we disconnect pitch from pitch class. Repetition here ties to pitch class, so to extend the list of scales we need to distinguish pitches from pitch class by changing the number of pitches from which to chose. The easy way to do that is to use the system of octave identification, as in C5, E4, etc. allowing the expansion of the scale span greater than just one octave of pitch classes. This allows scales that span more than one octave and may have different pitches between them.

[Reg]

There are lots of ways to use a Dom7th with a #9.... and like I said earlier it's great chord and also collection of notes to melodically develop when you don't want to be so vanilla when using Blue Notes and keeping the nat. 5th.

Like when playing over I VI II V, the VI chord is great point for VI7 and using Phr. Dom. add #9.... You can call it a Min or a Dom... it just depends on how you use it and what works for you verbally.

Even just any V7 to a I7 or I-7.... I mean I use the note collection all the time. Then again I don't need to think about organizing the notes, I've been using it for at least 50 years. Also work cool with it's Dom Sub. and like I said with Pents.

And at gigs I might drive players like Christian crazy, I like to push and get way out of that safe zone. But audiences and generally most musicians seem to enjoy and appreciate the approach.

Give it a try

[Christian Miller]

Tl;dr jazz musicians can’t spell. Get over it.

[Christian Miller]

There are lots of ways to use a Dom7th with a b3... and like I said earlier it's great chord and also collection of notes to melodically develop when you don't want to be so vanilla when using Blue Notes and keeping the nat. 5th.

Like when playing over I VI II V, the VI chord is great point for VI7 and using Phr. Dom. add b3… You can call it a Min or a Dom... it just depends on how you use it and what works for you verbally.

Even just any V7 to a I7 or I-7.... I mean I use the note collection all the time. Then again I don't need to think about organizing the notes, I've been using it for at least 50 years. Also work cool with it's Dom Sub. and like I said with Pents.

And at gigs I might drive players like Christian crazy, I like to push and get way out of that safe zone. But audiences and generally most musicians seem to enjoy and appreciate the approach.

Give it a try

fify

[Christian Miller]

Would anyone believe me if I said that the #9/b3 thing was literally part of a joke I saw at a comedy show once and people actually laughed?

it’s true. I can scarcely believe it now.

he also had some good ones about William Blake.